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KI's next Project. PvP fix

AuthorMessage
Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
Dear KingsIsle

Now that you are finished with Polaris can we please focus on fixing PvP before starting anything else? In particular the problem with the turn system where one player is put at an advantage while the other is at a disadvantage. We have been living with this problem for 7 years now and it still hasn't been fixed. Let's stop putting it off and get it done.

If you can't come up with an effective solution to this just look at your PvP message boards, many of your players have already suggested multiple different ways this could be fixed.

Explorer
Apr 05, 2013
99
I agree. PVP is quite broken, even more so with the new crit system. Instead of making new content, KI should refine the content they already released. Not trying to be aggressive though lol, I love this game.

Armiger
Mar 18, 2009
2466
Ghost stone on Nov 23, 2015 wrote:
Dear KingsIsle

Now that you are finished with Polaris can we please focus on fixing PvP before starting anything else? In particular the problem with the turn system where one player is put at an advantage while the other is at a disadvantage. We have been living with this problem for 7 years now and it still hasn't been fixed. Let's stop putting it off and get it done.

If you can't come up with an effective solution to this just look at your PvP message boards, many of your players have already suggested multiple different ways this could be fixed.
It has been addressed, in fact it was the most recent update to the PvP system. If you go second, you get an extra pip over your opponent. KI hasn't been ignoring it.

This is a turn-based system. Someone is going to go first and someone is going second....that is how it works.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
Oran of Urz on Nov 25, 2015 wrote:
It has been addressed, in fact it was the most recent update to the PvP system. If you go second, you get an extra pip over your opponent. KI hasn't been ignoring it.

This is a turn-based system. Someone is going to go first and someone is going second....that is how it works.
Wrong. The extra pip doesn't fix the problem. And you are naive if you think it does.

Look at it this way, imagine you are playing a game of tennis but at the beginning of the game a coin is flipped to determine who gets to serve for the entire game. Now that would just be ridiculous. But yet this is exactly what we have in Wizard101. Now imagine the creaters of the game of tennis realised the players of the game were not happy with how the game is played because one player is always at a disadvantage. But instead of properly fixing the issue by giving both players a chance to server they instead give the none serving player a head start of one point at the begging of the game. The extra pip is kind of like this, it doesn't take the problem away, but it does make the disadvantage to the player going second not quite as bad.

Although this did help even things a little it was not a complete solution to the problem. If it was then people wouldn't still be complaining about it. It's great if you are happy with this but the majority of us are still not satisfied.

And I'm definitely not satisfied playing a game that doesn't equally match both players against each other.

Wizard101 will never be taken seriously as a competitive PvP game if this problem continues to exist. Just Like tennis wouldn't be taken seriously as a competitive game if the winner is heavily influenced by a 50/50 coin toss before the game has even started.

Explorer
Dec 25, 2009
76
This is why I hate PvP. I have to cross my fingers and beg to Grandfather Spider that I could go first. And then I don't and lose to a feinted judgement from a warlord (level 15) when I'm a level 30 private. Other way around, if I went first, the enemy is greeted with dispels each time they try to attack, forcing them to have 2-3 pips.

But after 7 years, I would bet all my Piggles that KI most likely won't change. But know knows?

Also thing they can fix with PvP is TC usage. Limit it. Like put some level restrictions like what they did with Gargantuan. I get pretty mad when a level 10 whips out a Celestial Calendar

Armiger
Mar 18, 2009
2466
Ghost stone on Nov 26, 2015 wrote:
Wrong. The extra pip doesn't fix the problem. And you are naive if you think it does.

Look at it this way, imagine you are playing a game of tennis but at the beginning of the game a coin is flipped to determine who gets to serve for the entire game. Now that would just be ridiculous. But yet this is exactly what we have in Wizard101. Now imagine the creaters of the game of tennis realised the players of the game were not happy with how the game is played because one player is always at a disadvantage. But instead of properly fixing the issue by giving both players a chance to server they instead give the none serving player a head start of one point at the begging of the game. The extra pip is kind of like this, it doesn't take the problem away, but it does make the disadvantage to the player going second not quite as bad.

Although this did help even things a little it was not a complete solution to the problem. If it was then people wouldn't still be complaining about it. It's great if you are happy with this but the majority of us are still not satisfied.

And I'm definitely not satisfied playing a game that doesn't equally match both players against each other.

Wizard101 will never be taken seriously as a competitive PvP game if this problem continues to exist. Just Like tennis wouldn't be taken seriously as a competitive game if the winner is heavily influenced by a 50/50 coin toss before the game has even started.
LOL. Your post suggested KI ignored this problem....I'm only stating that was inaccurate statement (they did address it).

If they didn't change it to your expectations, that is a different issue you will have to deal with.

Additionally, no where in my post did I state I was "happy" with the current system. I have played numerous turn-based games and this is a typical fix (Hearthstone gives you an extra card for going second.....many other games give you an extra resource, as well).

Trust me, if Wizard101 alternated rounds like tennis...I guarantee players will be on these boards asking for it to be changed back (since players would find a way to exploit using two turns in a row....like Medusa).

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
Oran of Urz on Nov 29, 2015 wrote:
LOL. Your post suggested KI ignored this problem....I'm only stating that was inaccurate statement (they did address it).

If they didn't change it to your expectations, that is a different issue you will have to deal with.

Additionally, no where in my post did I state I was "happy" with the current system. I have played numerous turn-based games and this is a typical fix (Hearthstone gives you an extra card for going second.....many other games give you an extra resource, as well).

Trust me, if Wizard101 alternated rounds like tennis...I guarantee players will be on these boards asking for it to be changed back (since players would find a way to exploit using two turns in a row....like Medusa).
I am very familiar with Hearth Stone and the coin and extra card the player going second gets is necessary for balancing the second players disadvantage because without it they essentially start the game with their opponent being a turn ahead. Yu-Gi-Oh in my opinion has the best method for fixing this issue, something I think both Hearth Stone and Wizard101 could learn from.

(Yu-Gi-Oh)The player taking the the first turn is aloud to play spell cards and summon monsters to defend themselves but cannot attack for that turn only. This is necessary because their opponent is wide open and hasn't had a chance to defend themselves yet. Once the second player has their first turn they will play full turns back and forth until the game ends. The difference with Yu-Gi-Oh is instead of giving the player going second compensation they just put them in a situation where compensation is not needed. When the player going second starts the game their opponent is only "half" a turn ahead because they didn't get a full turn to start the game. Once the second player has played their turn they are now the one who is half a turn ahead because they had a full turn. Each player will always be half a turn ahead alternating back and forth as they finish their turns until the game ends.

If something like this would be implemented to Wizard101 rather than have the second player gain an extra pip, the first player would not gain a pip for their first turn only. They would only have access to equipment pips. There would be no chance of casting a shadow spell on the first turn and hit their opponent before the had a chance to defend themselves because they wouldn't have the pips required, including no shadow pip. They will have a chance to defend themselves if they choose but not have potential to do game winning damage. Even at low level PvP where players don't have equipment pips they will still have the opportunity to use a zero rank spell or at very least sort their hand.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
Oran of Urz on Nov 29, 2015 wrote:
LOL. Your post suggested KI ignored this problem....I'm only stating that was inaccurate statement (they did address it).

If they didn't change it to your expectations, that is a different issue you will have to deal with.

Additionally, no where in my post did I state I was "happy" with the current system. I have played numerous turn-based games and this is a typical fix (Hearthstone gives you an extra card for going second.....many other games give you an extra resource, as well).

Trust me, if Wizard101 alternated rounds like tennis...I guarantee players will be on these boards asking for it to be changed back (since players would find a way to exploit using two turns in a row....like Medusa).
OK, now with all of that said, let's not pretend like Wizard101's problem is the same as other regular turn based card games because it's not.
Wizard101's turn problem is not that one player get's to start the game. The real problem is that the player going second has to choose their move without seeing their opponents. In normal turn based games players take turns choosing their moves one after the other. This way both players see what their opponent has done before choosing their own move. With the system that we currently have only the player going first gets to see what their opponent has done before choosing their move. The player going second has to choose their move without knowing their opponents move. This happens because Wizard101 is not played turn by turn but rather round by round making both players choose their move's at the same time. The reason this is a problem is because one players spell always has to happen before the other leaving the other player blind.
The only realistic way this can be properly fixed is if the system was changed to turn by turn. Yes this does mean that players would have to wait for each other while they chose their moves. This is the way that literally every other turn based game is played including KI's other game Pirate101. Other games are played in this was not only because it is the fairest way to do it but also because it's the obvious way to do it.
It really puzzles me why KI tried to reinvent the wheel when making this game. All they ended up doing was making a flawed PvP system and we have been living with it for 7 years.

Now if KI can convert the game to turn by turn, then we can start talking about the previously mentioned issue of a player having the first turn and we can discuss adding or removing a pip.
But we all know that this is not what the main problem is.

Also I didn't mean alternating rounds they way you said. That would just be a disaster with players having back to back turns.