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Ice Needs A Boost

AuthorMessage
Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Shadow 343 on Jun 9, 2015 wrote:
Jade gear is available to all schools and gives a mounding amount of resist. Any school can get as much resist as ice unless you are thinking about one particular school. But how many ice wizards have you seen that do that? Ice has the most health which is really the only thing keeping them different from the other schools. Storm and ice are blending too much to be logical opposites. Well, storm is mostly blending with ice but you get my point.
Jade gear was the biggest mistake added to this game. It is jade gear that necessitated the hype offensive meta that we see today. That being said- Ice is still more well equipped in jade gear than any school bar life and death simply due to the health differential.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Veracity8 on Jun 9, 2015 wrote:
Eric,

One item that we disagree on is where is Storm in PVP, I see them differently than you.
All players see the flaws with their own school more than others, we all know that.

I see the teirs as follows:
Teir 1
Fire is clearly at top, no question in my mind. Your article on Fire displacing Balance was 100% correct.
Life (Just a solid all around player right now for PvP).
Balance, this school as actually lost a lot with the Jewel release. Loremaster has been dropped in it's ability by the accuracy jewels. I still consider it a top Teir school, but certainly not at the top of the Teir anymore.

Teir 2.
Death, the Peirce Jewels have made Death a lethal combatent again.
Storm, the Peirce Jewels have made Storm able to drop you health no matter what you do. The added resist
in the Darkmoor gear (and packs if you wnat to go there) has also really helped. At 44 peirce, Storm
has a reasonable chance now to win any match. 20 or more in Darkmoor gear, 18 in jewels, and 6 for the
ring, makes them a pure damage machine.

Teir 3.
Ice, the Peirce Jewels have pretty much taken away any advantage Ice once had. At around 60 resist, they
just can't survive long enough to win.
Myth. nothing needs to be said here, with low resist, low health, they are sitting at the bottom of the bucket.

Whether any of this has meaning is in quesiton, as I see PvP dying in this game.
The pierce jewels actually hurt storm a lot more than it helps it. In a resistless meta shield breaking capability and health buffer become the primary offensive and defensive traits. Storm still has very limited shield breaking capability while having the lowest health buffer of any school. What this means is that after any 4 pip hit storm is now instantly in the kill zone. Now to defeat me all a balance has to do is literally shield-lore-gaze-anything. Under any sort of buff a simple moon to weaver combo eliminates storm. While storm did gain in offensive ability it's fragility still holds it back severely in this meta. I do agree with you that PvP is wilting away at the root and it's a sad thing to see.

Delver
Dec 04, 2013
215
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 9, 2015 wrote:
Jade gear was the biggest mistake added to this game. It is jade gear that necessitated the hype offensive meta that we see today. That being said- Ice is still more well equipped in jade gear than any school bar life and death simply due to the health differential.
Jade gear is a large mistake but it nonetheless exists. You cannot deny that fact. Thus, it is entirely possible for any school to get as much resist as ice. And remember, the jade gear example was one of many.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 9, 2015 wrote:
Jade gear was the biggest mistake added to this game. It is jade gear that necessitated the hype offensive meta that we see today. That being said- Ice is still more well equipped in jade gear than any school bar life and death simply due to the health differential.
Eric,

No question at all, Jade was the biggest mistake added to the game. It's what has
destroyed PvP at almost all levels, plus KI's resistance to properly correct the flaw from
the start.

Just a thought on the Jade Gear, and something that PvPKing stated a while ago.

If KI made the Peirce Jewels craftable, and increased the resist on the Darkmoor gear,
it would almost elimiate the constant changed that have been due to Jade.
Example: Resist 90 percent, Pierce at 45%, with variables for each wizard.

Yes, Jade would still be a problem at lower levels, but Jade gear would not be
needed at Level 100. This would actually seem to balance back out PvP at level 100.

Any thoughts?

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Shadow 343 on Jun 10, 2015 wrote:
Jade gear is a large mistake but it nonetheless exists. You cannot deny that fact. Thus, it is entirely possible for any school to get as much resist as ice. And remember, the jade gear example was one of many.
No one denies it does exist. However it's existence does not inhibit ice in PvP since
a)Jade Gear isn't meta effective
b)Ice in Jade is still more defensive than any other school in jade.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Veracity8 on Jun 10, 2015 wrote:
Eric,

No question at all, Jade was the biggest mistake added to the game. It's what has
destroyed PvP at almost all levels, plus KI's resistance to properly correct the flaw from
the start.

Just a thought on the Jade Gear, and something that PvPKing stated a while ago.

If KI made the Peirce Jewels craftable, and increased the resist on the Darkmoor gear,
it would almost elimiate the constant changed that have been due to Jade.
Example: Resist 90 percent, Pierce at 45%, with variables for each wizard.

Yes, Jade would still be a problem at lower levels, but Jade gear would not be
needed at Level 100. This would actually seem to balance back out PvP at level 100.

Any thoughts?
The problem with that is the way pierce has been implemented. If pierce affected resist and then shields that would be a viable solution. However pierce affects shields and then resist meaning that the person with turn advantage gains an even larger advantage in this scenario.Simply putting up a tower from first against those types of stats would mean that the person going second would be hitting into the equivalent of an efreet. It also favors schools with easy ways around shields such as fire or balance. Sadly there are no easy solutions for the mess KI has dug itself into short of a revamp of several in game mechanics.

Delver
Dec 04, 2013
215
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 10, 2015 wrote:
No one denies it does exist. However it's existence does not inhibit ice in PvP since
a)Jade Gear isn't meta effective
b)Ice in Jade is still more defensive than any other school in jade.
It's the exact same gear for all schools. How do you figure one would be more defensive in it then the others? I'm speaking here as if all were wearing Jade and Jade alone. Idk what you're talking about.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1629
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 10, 2015 wrote:
The problem with that is the way pierce has been implemented. If pierce affected resist and then shields that would be a viable solution. However pierce affects shields and then resist meaning that the person with turn advantage gains an even larger advantage in this scenario.Simply putting up a tower from first against those types of stats would mean that the person going second would be hitting into the equivalent of an efreet. It also favors schools with easy ways around shields such as fire or balance. Sadly there are no easy solutions for the mess KI has dug itself into short of a revamp of several in game mechanics.
Eric, this is why I think flat damage was made. If every school but Fire, Myth and Balance had a significant amount of flat damage, say, 300 total for example, then PvP could reach a neutral balance. What I would find even better is if the person going second gained a 200 flat damage boost to their attacks, this would help evade shields and the major advantage of going first, which is sharply present at the time.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Shadow 343 on Jun 11, 2015 wrote:
It's the exact same gear for all schools. How do you figure one would be more defensive in it then the others? I'm speaking here as if all were wearing Jade and Jade alone. Idk what you're talking about.
Ice is more defensive in jade gear because of it's large health buffer which is a significant defensive factor. An ice in jade gear is much more defensive than a storm in jade gear despite having the same resist simply due to the differences in health.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
PvP King on Jun 11, 2015 wrote:
Eric, this is why I think flat damage was made. If every school but Fire, Myth and Balance had a significant amount of flat damage, say, 300 total for example, then PvP could reach a neutral balance. What I would find even better is if the person going second gained a 200 flat damage boost to their attacks, this would help evade shields and the major advantage of going first, which is sharply present at the time.
Flat damage is not the solution to the problem even at levels you cited since resist is factored in after all damage calculations-even flat damage.

Delver
Apr 08, 2015
250
PvP King on Jun 11, 2015 wrote:
Eric, this is why I think flat damage was made. If every school but Fire, Myth and Balance had a significant amount of flat damage, say, 300 total for example, then PvP could reach a neutral balance. What I would find even better is if the person going second gained a 200 flat damage boost to their attacks, this would help evade shields and the major advantage of going first, which is sharply present at the time.
Just a question; why not Myth? Myth is probably extinct by now . . . Just asking.

Delver
Dec 04, 2013
215
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 11, 2015 wrote:
Ice is more defensive in jade gear because of it's large health buffer which is a significant defensive factor. An ice in jade gear is much more defensive than a storm in jade gear despite having the same resist simply due to the differences in health.
Yes, Ice has the most health out of every school, but what I mea when I say that their defense is falling is resist and block. Health is the one defensive thing that Ice has which has not been given to storm(Of all people x. x) The resist and block of a storm and Ice in Jade Gear is the exact same.

Defender
Mar 10, 2014
171
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 11, 2015 wrote:
Ice is more defensive in jade gear because of it's large health buffer which is a significant defensive factor. An ice in jade gear is much more defensive than a storm in jade gear despite having the same resist simply due to the differences in health.
i see more death wizards and life wizards in jade gear then ice. bad juju is a more defancive then abomatable weaver because it can't be pierced. i have never seen an ice wizard in jade gear. a life wizard in jade gear is better then ice in jade gear because they can heal and ice can't. a death wizard in jade gear is better then an ice wizard because they can bad juju and plague which can't be pierced.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1629
Max Sterling on Jun 11, 2015 wrote:
Just a question; why not Myth? Myth is probably extinct by now . . . Just asking.
Myth, like Balance and Fire, has great ease of getting around shields.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Shadow 343 on Jun 12, 2015 wrote:
Yes, Ice has the most health out of every school, but what I mea when I say that their defense is falling is resist and block. Health is the one defensive thing that Ice has which has not been given to storm(Of all people x. x) The resist and block of a storm and Ice in Jade Gear is the exact same.
Their defense isn't falling. Health buffer is an important component of defense. A storm in jade gear is not nearly as defensive as an ice in jade gear simply due to the health buffer difference.

Delver
Dec 04, 2013
215
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 13, 2015 wrote:
Their defense isn't falling. Health buffer is an important component of defense. A storm in jade gear is not nearly as defensive as an ice in jade gear simply due to the health buffer difference.
No, storm in Jade is not storm because they aren't attackers. And yes, defense for Ice is failing. Look at the Darkmoor gear for Ice and storm. Compare them and tell me what you get.

Delver
Dec 04, 2013
215
Fred Frost on Jun 13, 2015 wrote:
i see more death wizards and life wizards in jade gear then ice. bad juju is a more defancive then abomatable weaver because it can't be pierced. i have never seen an ice wizard in jade gear. a life wizard in jade gear is better then ice in jade gear because they can heal and ice can't. a death wizard in jade gear is better then an ice wizard because they can bad juju and plague which can't be pierced.
Thumbs up, Fred.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Fred Frost on Jun 13, 2015 wrote:
i see more death wizards and life wizards in jade gear then ice. bad juju is a more defancive then abomatable weaver because it can't be pierced. i have never seen an ice wizard in jade gear. a life wizard in jade gear is better then ice in jade gear because they can heal and ice can't. a death wizard in jade gear is better then an ice wizard because they can bad juju and plague which can't be pierced.
Agreed. Jade gear isn't typically meta effective I was just proving a point to Shadow 343. However one of the top ice's in the game Tara Winter wears jade gear.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Shadow 343 on Jun 14, 2015 wrote:
No, storm in Jade is not storm because they aren't attackers. And yes, defense for Ice is failing. Look at the Darkmoor gear for Ice and storm. Compare them and tell me what you get.
We have already compared DM gear on the other thread did you forget? Ice Gear

Delver
Dec 04, 2013
215
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 14, 2015 wrote:
We have already compared DM gear on the other thread did you forget? Ice Gear
We did, but you obviously didn't see it clearly. In the set in which ice has fair resist and damage with the other schools, they have 76 crit and about 200 block. Fair?

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Shadow 343 on Jun 16, 2015 wrote:
We did, but you obviously didn't see it clearly. In the set in which ice has fair resist and damage with the other schools, they have 76 crit and about 200 block. Fair?
How did I miss it when I was one of the ones posting stats that you didn't even know rofl. 76 critical and 200 block on exalted ice with meta effective gear? Here is Ice's critical and block with meta-effective gear.

Hood of Cold Hearted: 119 critical
Armor of the Cold Hearted: 76 critical
Shoes of the Cold Hearted: 105 block
Wolf's Lancet of Shivers: 18 block
Duelist's Daredevil Ring: 25 block
Gem of the Grand Prophecy: 40 block and 30 critical
Village of Carpathes Case: 18 critical
Fortune Teller's Eternal Gaze: 115 block and 115 critical
Total Critical: 358 Critical (Way more than the 76 you claimed)
Total Block: 303 Block (Way more than the 200 you claimed)

Perhaps now you would like to bring facts into your arguments?

Delver
Dec 04, 2013
215
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 16, 2015 wrote:
How did I miss it when I was one of the ones posting stats that you didn't even know rofl. 76 critical and 200 block on exalted ice with meta effective gear? Here is Ice's critical and block with meta-effective gear.

Hood of Cold Hearted: 119 critical
Armor of the Cold Hearted: 76 critical
Shoes of the Cold Hearted: 105 block
Wolf's Lancet of Shivers: 18 block
Duelist's Daredevil Ring: 25 block
Gem of the Grand Prophecy: 40 block and 30 critical
Village of Carpathes Case: 18 critical
Fortune Teller's Eternal Gaze: 115 block and 115 critical
Total Critical: 358 Critical (Way more than the 76 you claimed)
Total Block: 303 Block (Way more than the 200 you claimed)

Perhaps now you would like to bring facts into your arguments?
This may be my last post for the time being because my membership's gonna go bye bye tomorrow. So yeah. But anyway . . .

358 crit and 303 block is not that great for an exalted. And compared to Storm, these stats are pretty bad. They're better than what i'd concluded, but they still aren't great. I'll through a PvP party at my house if an Ice in this gear defeats an exalted storm five times in a row. And I'll gift everyone who comes.

The Ice may win once or twice, but rofl not five times! Also, mind telling us the other stats this outfit gives?

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1022
Shadow 343 on Jun 18, 2015 wrote:
This may be my last post for the time being because my membership's gonna go bye bye tomorrow. So yeah. But anyway . . .

358 crit and 303 block is not that great for an exalted. And compared to Storm, these stats are pretty bad. They're better than what i'd concluded, but they still aren't great. I'll through a PvP party at my house if an Ice in this gear defeats an exalted storm five times in a row. And I'll gift everyone who comes.

The Ice may win once or twice, but rofl not five times! Also, mind telling us the other stats this outfit gives?
358 critical is not great(it's decent) for exalted but 303 block is incredible for said lvl. Compared to storm those stats are bad? Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. An ice may not be able to defeat a storm 5 times in a row with this gear. Neither would a storm be able to defeat ice 5 times in a row with this gear. Or perhaps one ice player may defeat a storm player 5 times in a row. Or perhaps a storm player can defeat an Ice 5 times in a row. This tells me nothing. As for the other stats- don't be lazy. They are posted in the other thread or you can go research them for yourself.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 18, 2015 wrote:
358 critical is not great(it's decent) for exalted but 303 block is incredible for said lvl. Compared to storm those stats are bad? Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. An ice may not be able to defeat a storm 5 times in a row with this gear. Neither would a storm be able to defeat ice 5 times in a row with this gear. Or perhaps one ice player may defeat a storm player 5 times in a row. Or perhaps a storm player can defeat an Ice 5 times in a row. This tells me nothing. As for the other stats- don't be lazy. They are posted in the other thread or you can go research them for yourself.
Eric,

Back to the original subject, there is no question that Storm, Myth, Ice and Death need some help.
Knowing that your (and PVP kings) opinion holds a great deal of weight with KI, which I believe.
(This is based on the last spell changes they made on the discussion of LoreMaster).

How would you go about changing these four schools to make the game more balanced?

Knowing that Storm can be a glass cannon, and the potential of storm. Any suggestions need
to take into consideration, that you could be slightly bias on storm.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1629
Veracity8 on Jun 29, 2015 wrote:
Eric,

Back to the original subject, there is no question that Storm, Myth, Ice and Death need some help.
Knowing that your (and PVP kings) opinion holds a great deal of weight with KI, which I believe.
(This is based on the last spell changes they made on the discussion of LoreMaster).

How would you go about changing these four schools to make the game more balanced?

Knowing that Storm can be a glass cannon, and the potential of storm. Any suggestions need
to take into consideration, that you could be slightly bias on storm.
Storm: As I mention repetitively, the Test Realm's block rating change fixed quite the amount of issues with the school. In the current live realm, the Storm school can get OHKO'd by any Shadow Enhanced Spell, but now since critical and block rating is balanced in TR, Storm will only be taking roughly 2600 damage from Shadow Enhanced Spells with no boosts (hint KI, these spells are too powerful for PvP). What the Storm school needs is a jump in health, as well as every other school to keep things balanced. It also needs an increase in heal boost and resist to make even the lowest forms of a Primordial Healing Current effectively heal, and if Shadow Enhanced Spells do eventually become banned from PvP (which I continually hope for), then the Storm school itself will become balanced, as it'll be a low health school and being the only school to deal a large low-pip damage spike.

Myth: Once considered the best PvP school, Myth took itself in a nosedive down to tier 3 since the recent updates. Of course, Myth has ease with going around shields and all, but it lots its focus in doing that since level 48. Orthrus and Minotaur aren't nearly as effective early match any more and serves only as a finisher In the future, if Myth got another low-pip double hit that deals better damage than Minotaur, it will be a very nice offensive school. This would return its Celestian times state.

Ice: Ice doesn't need a lot to become as balanced if you think about it. The only thing it needs is more resist and block rating so it can be able to use a Life Mastery amulet.

Death: Once tied with Balance for the "most even schools," Death lost its touch when it kept getting healing negation spells when nobody is healing. A low pip spell (like Loremaster, putting a -20% Weakness and -25% Infection) would help Death catch up to where it needs to be.