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I have the solution

AuthorMessage
Defender
Jan 18, 2013
195
I have the solution to a very real problem in PvP.(A full solution, not a parcial one)
The turn system.
It's broken.
It has been broken since the very beginning 6 years ago and no one seems to have made any real progress in fixing it. We all know what I'm talking about. One player or team always has the upper hand over their opponent depending on whether they go first or second. I could go pages in detail about why this is not an adequate system for a competitive PvP game but I don't have the space. So if you're not aware of this problem and want to hear more or want to dispute me or defend the current system then please leave your comments below and I will respond.

The solution
In order to make the game fair for both players, then both players need an equal opportunity to counter their opponents move. Both players need to see their opponents move before choosing their own.
How do we do this? Not only is it really simple but its also the most common method already used in turn based games(games that do not have this problem) so you should all already be familiar with it.

Players will take turns at choosing their moves one after the other, while the other player waits. This way neither player is blind to the move coming before theirs.
It would look something like this:
PlayerA chooses their move while PlayerB waits
Animation plays as PlayerA's move is executed
PlayerB choses their move while PlayerA waits
Animation plays as PlayerB's move is executed
Repeat
Repeat
Repeat

However.
There is a problem that arises from this system.
But it also has an easy fix. And just like before it has a simple solution and is also the most common method used in other turn based card games.
The problem is that games will take much longer with one player having to wait for their opponent when usually they would be choosing their move as well.(That's if you consider this a problem)
In a normal card game you would still have your hand in front of you when it's your opponents turn. So we do the same thing. While you are waiting for your opponent to choose, you can view your hand and think about what your next move might be. During this time even though you cannot choose your next play, you can still discard, draw TC and enchant to keep yourself busy. Because you have already been busy working on your own move during your opponents turn the full 30 seconds will not be required. I'm not going to claim to know exactly what the perfect time would be but 20 seconds should be about right. Also keep in mind that during your own turn the faster you choose your play the less time your opponent has to view and work their cards. An incentive to play fast and also speed up the game.

Both Players cards will be removed from the screen when a move has been chosen in order for the animation to play.

I understand that players may be reluctant to change. But if anything it will improve PvP, and at least deserves to be tried in test realm to see what players think.
Third age maybe?

Champion
Jul 13, 2013
415
Ghost stone on Sep 5, 2014 wrote:
I have the solution to a very real problem in PvP.(A full solution, not a parcial one)
The turn system.
It's broken.
It has been broken since the very beginning 6 years ago and no one seems to have made any real progress in fixing it. We all know what I'm talking about. One player or team always has the upper hand over their opponent depending on whether they go first or second. I could go pages in detail about why this is not an adequate system for a competitive PvP game but I don't have the space. So if you're not aware of this problem and want to hear more or want to dispute me or defend the current system then please leave your comments below and I will respond.

The solution
In order to make the game fair for both players, then both players need an equal opportunity to counter their opponents move. Both players need to see their opponents move before choosing their own.
How do we do this? Not only is it really simple but its also the most common method already used in turn based games(games that do not have this problem) so you should all already be familiar with it.

Players will take turns at choosing their moves one after the other, while the other player waits. This way neither player is blind to the move coming before theirs.
It would look something like this:
PlayerA chooses their move while PlayerB waits
Animation plays as PlayerA's move is executed
PlayerB choses their move while PlayerA waits
Animation plays as PlayerB's move is executed
Repeat
Repeat
Repeat

However.
There is a problem that arises from this system.
But it also has an easy fix. And just like before it has a simple solution and is also the most common method used in other turn based card games.
The problem is that games will take much longer with one player having to wait for their opponent when usually they would be choosing their move as well.(That's if you consider this a problem)
In a normal card game you would still have your hand in front of you when it's your opponents turn. So we do the same thing. While you are waiting for your opponent to choose, you can view your hand and think about what your next move might be. During this time even though you cannot choose your next play, you can still discard, draw TC and enchant to keep yourself busy. Because you have already been busy working on your own move during your opponents turn the full 30 seconds will not be required. I'm not going to claim to know exactly what the perfect time would be but 20 seconds should be about right. Also keep in mind that during your own turn the faster you choose your play the less time your opponent has to view and work their cards. An incentive to play fast and also speed up the game.

Both Players cards will be removed from the screen when a move has been chosen in order for the animation to play.

I understand that players may be reluctant to change. But if anything it will improve PvP, and at least deserves to be tried in test realm to see what players think.
Third age maybe?
I think this is good for PVP.
When I face another balance wizard, it's really about who can cast judgement with a full rack of pips first.
I don't think they should change regular battles at all though.
Myrna Dragoncloud

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
195
Dragoncloud888 on Sep 6, 2014 wrote:
I think this is good for PVP.
When I face another balance wizard, it's really about who can cast judgement with a full rack of pips first.
I don't think they should change regular battles at all though.
Myrna Dragoncloud
If by regular battles you mean PvE, then this system will have very little effect on how it is played. The planning phase time for PvE will need to remain at 30 seconds because there wont be any time to organise your hand during your opponents turn because the AI's choose instantly. It will be as if nothing has changed.

The only noticeable difference is that it will now be as if you are always going first.
Just like in PvP you will always see the AI's move before choosing your own. You will never have to predict the AI's move like you had to when going second.

The only exception to this is on the first turn where 50% of the time the AI's will have the first move. This will be a lot different to what we are used to. Rather than going into the planning phase we will have a spell cast at us straight away when getting caught by an enemy.
Unless KI chooses to always give the player the first turn.

Explorer
Dec 24, 2009
65
I do like this system. In fact, it's very close to the P101 system. I don't know why they haven't implemented the new system into this game. You're solution's only flaw is that it isn't the old way, but veterans will learn to take it in and deal with it. However this would have to effect the other battles outside PvP or else people couldn't learn the new system very well. Now, because other battles would b against AI, you wouldn't have time to enchant, discard, etc. since they're AI, so planning would be immensely different between PvP and PvE. If the AI is instant, your only planning time would be the 30 seconds you get for your turn, and it doesn't help that when you get to 10 the game puts you on the spot and makes the timer bigger and red. So all in all, some people would resist change, but if Kingsisle puts in this system, I'd embrace it full on.

Richard BattleStone lvl 86

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
This has been suggested over and over, but KI has never responded to the request.
They have given one extra pip to the person going second.
I really think that this was their Fix to the First turn advantage.

At this point in the game, I doubt that they will ever fix the flaw.
If they had wanted to fix it, instead of putting in tournaments, they would
have put the time into fixing this flaw, but they chose not to.
Therefore, I don't think it will ever happen, which is really too bad.

So many other games don't have a flaw like this, which makes those games
much more even when in a battle.



Explorer
Oct 22, 2009
62
It also would be difficult to execute in team play. Who chooses at what time? Does the entire team execute before responding?

It is an interesting suggestion though. I think KI wanted it to be a round by round play, instead of play by play.

I am not "torching" you on the idea, but would need fine tuning for it to work. One thing for sure. It would help even out the "going first" advantage.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
195
This original message has been removed.
Firstly
Since when did PvP have a policy? And what is it?
Secondly
The player going first can already see what their opponent is doing. So if that is the case then PvP already defeats its own policy. And why should only one side have this advantage?
Thirdly
Your reference to NFL is not a good example because both teams can gain possession and have the advantage of surprising their opponent. In Wizard101 only one player has this advantage and for the whole match. Not the same thing.
Fourthly
Wining, losing, learning, adjusting your strategy and outwitting your opponent is irrelevant. I'm talking about the fairness of the system, not how to be a good player.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
195
Shunon on Sep 8, 2014 wrote:
It also would be difficult to execute in team play. Who chooses at what time? Does the entire team execute before responding?

It is an interesting suggestion though. I think KI wanted it to be a round by round play, instead of play by play.

I am not "torching" you on the idea, but would need fine tuning for it to work. One thing for sure. It would help even out the "going first" advantage.
Actually doing this in team PvP would be exactly the same as I suggested above.
For example in 4v4 all 4 players on a teamA will be choosing their moves at the same time like it happens already. During this time teamB will have their cards in front of them as well so they can discard, enchant etc. Once all 4 players on teamA have chosen their move then both teams cards will be removed off the screen for the animation to play as teamA's moves are executed. Then It's TeamB's turn to choose their moves. The whole thing happens again but from the other side.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
195
Veracity8 on Sep 7, 2014 wrote:
This has been suggested over and over, but KI has never responded to the request.
They have given one extra pip to the person going second.
I really think that this was their Fix to the First turn advantage.

At this point in the game, I doubt that they will ever fix the flaw.
If they had wanted to fix it, instead of putting in tournaments, they would
have put the time into fixing this flaw, but they chose not to.
Therefore, I don't think it will ever happen, which is really too bad.

So many other games don't have a flaw like this, which makes those games
much more even when in a battle.


If what you say is actually true and KI is never going to do anything about it then that's really sad. This suggestion would fix a long existing problem and improve PvP for everyone. They should listen to what their players have to say. We are only trying to help them improve the game.

KI added a second starting pip to the player going second as an attempt at fixing this problem with the start of the second age. It was very simple, easy and didn't require a lot of programming. I think they did this as a quick and easy fix to even things out(which it did a little) and satisfy the players. I hope by now they realise that it was not a full solution to the problem and we are still not satisfied. I hope that with the start of the third age KI can put some effort into fixing this problem and offer us a complete fix to this issue. They don't even need to come up with a solution themselves. We have already given it to them.

In my opinion it's the only thing preventing Wizard101 from being one of the best card games out there. Many competitive gamers have moved on to other games, including me. I have cancelled my membership. So if nothing is ever done about it, then once its run out that will be the end of Wizard101 for me. Which is a shame because it's a really great game minus this flaw. If the PvP was fair then this game would definitely be worth more of my time and money.

It's in KI's best interest to fix it.