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Going second really is a huge disadvantage

AuthorMessage
Survivor
Jul 03, 2009
10
Dont tell me it isnt we all know the systems rigged going second. Dispels only work when you go first, that its self is a huge advantage. Dont tell me you have to predict it because unless your looking through a crystal ball, theres nothing you can do. I know a way to fix going second, and that is to give an extra pip to the person going second putting them at 9 pips to start of with. (4 power pip and 1 normal pip) this will negate the first advantage because player 2 will have a better chance at any counter attacks. im just saying this will give player 2 the chance they need to fight back player 1's first turn advantage because right now player 1 has an insane advantage. i win 90 percent of matches going first, 10 percent going second. This shouldn't be a game of who goes first wins.

Administrator
AZY2244 on Sep 27, 2018 wrote:
Dont tell me it isnt we all know the systems rigged going second. Dispels only work when you go first, that its self is a huge advantage. Dont tell me you have to predict it because unless your looking through a crystal ball, theres nothing you can do. I know a way to fix going second, and that is to give an extra pip to the person going second putting them at 9 pips to start of with. (4 power pip and 1 normal pip) this will negate the first advantage because player 2 will have a better chance at any counter attacks. im just saying this will give player 2 the chance they need to fight back player 1's first turn advantage because right now player 1 has an insane advantage. i win 90 percent of matches going first, 10 percent going second. This shouldn't be a game of who goes first wins.
A great point! There may be other strategies to consider, but we're taking a close look at the balance here still.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1623
Sparck on Oct 4, 2018 wrote:
A great point! There may be other strategies to consider, but we're taking a close look at the balance here still.
That's actually great to hear. Here's some of the key spells that widen the gap between going first and second for more info (excluding dispels which were already mentioned):

1) Shatter - A player going first can stack up blades (or even more threatening, traps which can't be removed easily), and then can use Shatter at any random turn while the player going second has no opportunity to react. Not predicting Shatter ends in a loss. If a player going second uses Shatter, the player going first can respond with a shield immediately the next turn.

2) Burning Rampage - Burning Rampage simply has to be predicted from second or you won't counter it at all. From first, the initial 70 damage hit happens, and then the "0 damage timer" on the spell gets put into effect in the same turn that it is casted since that's the mechanic of DoT's (like how Fire Elf's DoT will deal damage the same turn it is casted from first). The next turn, the 700 damage hit of Burning Rampage will activate and deal a massive amount of damage. Casting Burning Rampage from second can be countered immediately with Triage or Shift since the "0 damage timer" hasn't activated yet.

3) Efreet/Abominable Weaver - When a Fire wizard is at 8 pips or an Ice wizard is at 5 pips, the player going second literally has to risk running their own attack into a -90% weakness or a -75% shield whenever they attack. A player going first will never have to worry about that.

4) Minions - A minion casted from second can be killed the next turn without it casting a single spell. If a minion is casted from first, even if the player going second predicts the minion summon with an AoE (like Blizzard), the minion isn't considered a part of the battle yet so the AoE won't even hit the minion. Going first guarantees a minion to cast a spell. At lower levels, somebody shielding a minion from first can result in a massive negative pip trade for the player going second since they'll have to use pips again to attack the minion.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1623
Sparck on Oct 4, 2018 wrote:
A great point! There may be other strategies to consider, but we're taking a close look at the balance here still.
One indirect (but effective) method to mitigate the advantage of going first is to increase survivability (especially at levels 90+) of players. Since miss-predicting something at max level PvP is fatal (ex. you cast Triage for Burning Rampage but your opponent casted Fire Beetle and set up 3 traps in one turn instead and does 4000 with Fire From Above), giving players more survivability (health or a stat to negate armor pierce) gives the player going second more opportunities to "predict wrong" and still come back from the match. For example, some schools only currently have 5500 health at max level. A 4000 damage Fire From Above will bring them into a critical health zone and the player going second can't mess up any more times or that player will lose. If said player going second had 9000 health, that 4000 damage will still leave the player with 5000 health left and with plenty of time to react.

Lowering down the 'swing factor' of how devastating a misprediction is is one solid way to alleviate players going second. Going second wasn't as severe in 2013 previous as it is today since a misprediction back then wouldn't result in a major loss of your health or the match except Shatter.

The first turn advantage was hardly ever complained about before 2013. Lots of the complaints about it in 2010 were due to stun blocks not existing and the player going first would chain stun endlessly, and the majority of complaints were about team PvP were 4 players would react before the next 4.

Survivor
Jul 03, 2009
10
hey hey hey everyone attacking 'burning rampage'. If your gonna attack fires best card, you should also attack, 'loremaster', 'mana burn' and guardian spirit. Efreet is fine the way it is, its not spamable.

Survivor
Mar 18, 2012
31
This is so not true. I win from second all the time. Do not give lag teams 9 pips to start from second, because they are so bad at pvp they have to lag their position and get minor blessing, fairy, or pigsie, like every round. Sparck, you better not.

Iridian Swiftsong 80 something
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Iceshard 125

and many more, too lazy to list....

Survivor
Jul 03, 2009
10
Hahaha going first pretty much means you control the entire game. You have more control of the match going first than second. Spark dont listen to people that dont pvp much!

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1623
AZY2244 on Oct 6, 2018 wrote:
hey hey hey everyone attacking 'burning rampage'. If your gonna attack fires best card, you should also attack, 'loremaster', 'mana burn' and guardian spirit. Efreet is fine the way it is, its not spamable.
Nobody's attacking any card, those cards mentioned are just prime candidates of the widening gap between players going first or second. Dispels, Efreet, Burning Rampage, Mana Burn, minions, Abominable Weaver and Shatter are that much more effective from first compared to going second in the sense that they're actually overpowered from first but not nearly as effective from second. The reason behind them being overpowered from first is because the player going second has to predict those cards perfectly or else they'll lose the match or lose massive momentum which heavily swings the match in favour of the player going first; and they're underwhelming from second because they're either unreliable (Mana Burn, Burning Rampage, minions) or they're purely stall spells instead of momentum swinging spells (Dispels, Efreet, Abominable Weaver) compared to being cast from first.

However, I do believe that Loremaster, Burning Rampage and Guardian Spirit need a second look at by KI.

Administrator
gillpill1985 on Oct 6, 2018 wrote:
This is so not true. I win from second all the time. Do not give lag teams 9 pips to start from second, because they are so bad at pvp they have to lag their position and get minor blessing, fairy, or pigsie, like every round. Sparck, you better not.

Iridian Swiftsong 80 something
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Swiftsong 125
Iridian Iceshard 125

and many more, too lazy to list....
Hey, I listen!! :p

Delver
Nov 27, 2013
256
Sparck --

Please ask the team to consider an experiment sometime, and have the lower-ranked player (or team) go first.

Delver
Jan 18, 2013
206
I see everyone has good ideas about how this problem should be solved, but none of these are complete fixes. “Balancing” is not the end of this problem. Compensating the player with the disadvantage will never be as good as taking the disadvantage away. We have been having this conversation for a long time and the solution has already been proposed and developed by KI. We know it as Turn Based PvP. They just need to hurry up and implement it to ranked.

Defender
Mar 10, 2014
171
Yes I agree second is a BIG disadvantage. I made a post about this as well, I really like what kingsisle did in turn based tourneys and hope there is a ranked mode like that. There are some matches I know I can win if only I was first, or if it was turn based. I hate it when I go on a second streak, I went 5 matches in a row second, then I went first only to go second to matches after that.

Survivor
Mar 10, 2015
11
Sparck on Oct 9, 2018 wrote:
Hey, I listen!! :p
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one Sparck that you may not have been around as long as some of the players - but I think saying that KI "listens" is a bit insulting. I am not personally attacking you - but hear us out (I am speaking for several people I've known here.)

Most people did not want this type of a PvP meta. Shrike along with the massive damage and piercing has just all out ruined it. It has seriously hurt the players and the community because it has drove so many people in frustration of KI not listening that very few remain. Years ago, this arena would be jam-packed with hundreds of matches going on simultaneously at any given point in the day. Ranked PvP was not just a 1v1-only place. It had several 3v3 and 4v4 leagues. People would create communities and seriously enjoy the game. Because of the overhauling of "regular" cards and KI's lengths to go into RNG extremities, it has seriously decimated the player base.

Please, tell me I'm wrong.

Once again, I mean no disrespect to you, but please listen to the players. Shadow spells have really destroyed this game and I am one of few who have stuck around because of the memories of how amazing this game used to be.

As to the main topic of discussion - I agree. Second is a huge disadvantage. I like the way turn-based plays but I just think it gives mana burn too much of an advantage toward balances.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
112
Vic Ward on Oct 27, 2018 wrote:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one Sparck that you may not have been around as long as some of the players - but I think saying that KI "listens" is a bit insulting. I am not personally attacking you - but hear us out (I am speaking for several people I've known here.)

Most people did not want this type of a PvP meta. Shrike along with the massive damage and piercing has just all out ruined it. It has seriously hurt the players and the community because it has drove so many people in frustration of KI not listening that very few remain. Years ago, this arena would be jam-packed with hundreds of matches going on simultaneously at any given point in the day. Ranked PvP was not just a 1v1-only place. It had several 3v3 and 4v4 leagues. People would create communities and seriously enjoy the game. Because of the overhauling of "regular" cards and KI's lengths to go into RNG extremities, it has seriously decimated the player base.

Please, tell me I'm wrong.

Once again, I mean no disrespect to you, but please listen to the players. Shadow spells have really destroyed this game and I am one of few who have stuck around because of the memories of how amazing this game used to be.

As to the main topic of discussion - I agree. Second is a huge disadvantage. I like the way turn-based plays but I just think it gives mana burn too much of an advantage toward balances.
No offense but its not just mass damage and pierce that ruined the game. It's jades too. Which you kinda failed to mention because you got 100% of your ranks by using the turtle/Angel/Juju jade strategies at max and mid levels, which consist of wasting time and running people out of cards. It's sad that you have to force people to flee by stalling for hours for 16 points. Also i know that ever since juju got nerfed you refused to 1v1 because you couldn't jade death anymore.

Remember it was a domino effect. Mass Pierce and damage was in fact the direct result of Jade gear/mass heal boost. Just like players like you lead to the direct nerf of bad juju. Now offensive deaths have to suffer because of it.

...Speak on everything not just the things that directly benefit or effect you.

Survivor
Jan 13, 2014
7
PvP King on Oct 9, 2018 wrote:
Nobody's attacking any card, those cards mentioned are just prime candidates of the widening gap between players going first or second. Dispels, Efreet, Burning Rampage, Mana Burn, minions, Abominable Weaver and Shatter are that much more effective from first compared to going second in the sense that they're actually overpowered from first but not nearly as effective from second. The reason behind them being overpowered from first is because the player going second has to predict those cards perfectly or else they'll lose the match or lose massive momentum which heavily swings the match in favour of the player going first; and they're underwhelming from second because they're either unreliable (Mana Burn, Burning Rampage, minions) or they're purely stall spells instead of momentum swinging spells (Dispels, Efreet, Abominable Weaver) compared to being cast from first.

However, I do believe that Loremaster, Burning Rampage and Guardian Spirit need a second look at by KI.
There are so many things I want to reply to here, but quoting them all would take too much time/space.

1, There are many "broken" spells. They will be abused. As in all games, some schools/classes are better than others for various things; I believe that trying to "balance" all schools is, though a nice idea, out-of-place. Some spells should be adjusted, as you said, and I would add Abominable Weaver to that list as well.



2. On going first/second... Some spells, like Mana Burn, are much more effective from second. I have a relatively high-rated (Tournament Leaderboards) Grandmaster Balance, one of my favorite strategies when playing very offensively is stunning from second into a Mana Burn. While I still run the risk of my opponent casting Stun Blocks on the same round, it rarely happens and nearly always evens the balance (unintentional pun, sorry ). Truth be told,



3. For "fixing" player order... It's difficult, if not downright impossible, to find a solution to satisfy the masses. Some loath Turn-Based tournaments. I love them! As with any change of mechanics, there'll be new "broken" spells. Mana Burn being the most obvious.... And new "bad" spells, most notably Burning Rampage and other heavy-hitting DoT's.


4, In conclusion... Spell nerfing should not be a priority now. With Bad Juju out of the way, ranked is relatively playable (here I use the word "playable" loosely) as per broken spells and the next step for Kingsisle would seem to be a fix for character placement: going first or second, only THEN looking at spells. Spell mechanics will change with match mechanics, and the last thing we need is a "patch" for a spell which could be fixed on its own by implementing Turn-Based into ranked... Or something else.

We'll have to wait and see what KI comes up with, I hope it'll bring PvP out of the pool of unhappy duelists it's in now!

Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
1. Automatic Stun Shield (single) for the person going second.
2. Automatic Tower Shield for the person going second in the first round.
3. Players going second get 20% innate pierce boost.
4. Players going first cannot cast any Dispels.
5. Lower Damage-per-turn in the game as countering 4-pip shadow enhanced spells from second is really difficult. I wouldn't mind removing all the Mirage 4-pip shadow spells from PVP.

Some suggestions.

Adrian, Level 125

Survivor
Jun 28, 2018
14
Exabytes This completely takes away a lot of the game in a lot of purposes I know a lot of people who do not carry around wand hits and EVERYONE would have to have them in pvp for the 50% chance of going first a tower shield is just tooo much I mean an ice bird can take that of but if your playing alot of other strats loremaster,heal strats etc you are doomed and a 20% peirce if the person a had good enough peirce would make sheilds close to useless.

Lvl 20 John Shadow something (Forgot)

Delver
Jan 18, 2013
206
Exabytes. As I said before, this will never be a complete solution solution to the problem. We will be forever be balancing the amount of compensation given to the player going second. It would always need adjusting with every new update and would never be perfect. The proper solution is to remove the disadvantage all together by implementing a proper turn based system. Which we already have, KI just hasn’t made it the standard yet. I’m talking about turn based PvP

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
841
The "chess-style" tournament is still a thing right? Why hasn't that been implemented for all pvp matches? Keep the second starts with one additional pip to balance out the fact that going first still gives the first move, and then perfectly balanced IMO.

Delver
Jan 18, 2013
206
Robobot1747 on Nov 15, 2018 wrote:
The "chess-style" tournament is still a thing right? Why hasn't that been implemented for all pvp matches? Keep the second starts with one additional pip to balance out the fact that going first still gives the first move, and then perfectly balanced IMO.
I agree. But I would suggest instead of giving the second player an extra pip, instead don’t give a pip to the starting player for the first turn other than gear pips. This would mean they are unable to do significant damage before their opponent has had a chance to defend themselves.