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Fixes to the advantage of going first

AuthorMessage
Astrologist
Aug 21, 2009
1205
The following would help

1. a one turn delay in dispels and beguiles taking affect, just delay these spells a turn in pvp so that both sides know ahead of time when they are placed upon them, or remove them from PvP so that the team going first isn't at such a huge advantage

2. give the team that goes last an extra white pip, effectively if you go first you get first use of your pips which means you effectively have an extra pip over the team that goes second and you are also able to see what they have played and what effects are upon you before you choose your next card

Also, if you support these recomendations please say so in hopes that if enough players support them that perhaps Wizard101 will impliment them.


Astrologist
Aug 21, 2009
1205
I really wish they would fix pvp, it is hard to blow off pvp and say that it is just a side game that doesn't matter when so many players purposely create and raise up characters expressly for pvp play.

Defender
Jul 18, 2009
160
Yeah or alternate going first each round?

Yeah PvP is severely broken. Going first is a huge advantage and some classes are highly over powered vs. others.

I agree that pvp is one of the least looked into aspects of this game. Sadly the pve portion is way boring after you completed it once and all there really is left is pvp.

Survivor
Jul 01, 2010
33
Or make the team that goes second be able to see what the first team is casting. No more surprises that make PvP annoyingly unfair.

Astrologist
Aug 21, 2009
1205
Agletizer wrote:
Or make the team that goes second be able to see what the first team is casting. No more surprises that make PvP annoyingly unfair.


That would work too... something needs done as I am tired of going last and always having my spells beguiled and/or dispelled while watching the life players on my side always having dispels upon them while losing all pips... the side that goes first in comparison never loses their pips cause they know what has been cast upon them before choosing their next cards.

Survivor
Jun 19, 2009
4
Honestly. I see no problem in either going first or second. If you play enough pvp's then you should know how people work and it would not bother you if you go second. Because you already know what they are going to do. Really, it's not unfair at all.

Heck I suck at playing with my death character in pvp and I went second to a person who was a storm and somehow won. And he sure did wild bolt me a lot. Makes me wonder how I ever survived when I went second with a character I suck at playing in pvp. Specially since I couldn't hit him at full strainght since I wasn't getting the right cards. I just said F it and went for the kill and won.

Oh, I'm babbling again.

Honestly I just wish people would stop crying over ever little thing they can't get by and win with. It I can win with no problem going second and a whole lot of others can too. Then I see no problem with it.

Know how your oponent is, base on school and how most people attack by that school.
Get the right cards, and have a nice flowing deck.
Know how to use your cards.
Know how to get pass your oppenonts cards.

Then honestly. Winning should be no problem rather you go first or second.

Survivor
Dec 25, 2008
2
KingsIsle: Please discount the post by PheonixDarkwing above...this is not whining this is a real problem. Going first is ridiculously overpowered. Want to know how to win if you go first? Go the library, buy a bunch of Tower Shield treasure cards, and put ONLY them in your treadure card deck. Anytime you are in a jam and need a sheild, just discard a card, draw a gauranteed -55% off, and drop it in just before your opponent goes in for the kill. If you have even a moderately effective PvP deck and employ this strategy while going first it is very very very hard to lose. Try it and you'll see. And it's not hard to afford the cost of those if you use them judiciously.

Plus you get to hammer your opponent at full health, and unless he guessed correctly, you get to hammer him again before he casts a heal shield. Whereas when you go first you dont have to guess. You know.

Completely unfair advantage.

Fixes I have pondered - obviously making it random each turn who goes first seems simple enough and would fix this.

But a much more interesting fix is to go down the road of Magic the Gathering and start to make the card phasing vary a bit - by card type not by player turn. This will create money for you, since it will make PvP far far more interesting and engaging and keep players who have played the game to the end already sticking around longer. A potential card order phasing. All steps are done in random player order if both players are in the same sub-phase:

1. Shields and Wands go off first - random order. Any shield spell needs to be fast to be usefull and wands you just flick - what's quicker than that? Adds a nice reason to keep them around.
2. Heals go next. Also fast but a bit slower than shields.
3. Enchantments go next.
4. Damage spells that target a single player.
5. Area effect damage spells - these spells are bigger and effect more area. So they take longer to cast.
6. Summon spells go last (for Wizards). Summoning always takes a while - every Wizard knows that!
7. Any spell cast by a Pet goes last. Pets are not real wizards and so their magic abilities are infererior. Suck it, Pets! :-)

Coding this type of system is not that hard; every spell record gets a field that identifies it's turn order and the turn order code slots them in that order.

To roll this out, make two additional (not replacements) PvP sign ups (new school and old school) and give it six months. Over time players will gravitate to the one they prefer. I suspect the old way will fade away - when it gets low enough you can drop it. Implement the system only for PvP first and see how it goes. Moving it to the PvE area at some point doesn't really change much from a young player perspective, and for older players it will just go to make the game more interesting.

This will completely change PvP and the deck strategies will change tp be more sublte and deep. It will be a lot easier to defeat the early big gun approach and so they will evolve to a more strategic game. DoTs will be essential as they are good at "shield washing" so you can pop in a big hit.

Please consider this. You have a good and engaging game here even for adults (I am 46 and a published game designer). But the going first advantage is killing PvP. When I go first, I win (essentially all the time unless something weird happens - like bolt working when I don't have sheild down). When I go second, I win about a third to half the time.

This needs a fix.

Defender
May 30, 2009
157
Honestly, now we have come to totally revamping the entire game mechanics? This game is centered around card playing, deck construction, and learning how to use your school. If you are at the disadvantage of going second, be it PvP or PvE, you learn how to work around those negatives that are cast and continue on with the game. A skilled duelist will win even if he/she is going second.

My team of 4 (life, fire, balance, death) came upon a team of 4 storm, went second and STILL won the match. We took a beating in the beginning. But because all of us know how to play the game, even with its so called disadvantages, we overcame a team that should have slaughtered us. These weren't low level wizards who this was their first time in the arena either. We just knew how to use our spells and work together as a team.

If it isn't one thing people are complaining about in PvP, it's another. I would suggest maybe read a little on the fansites and learn how to build a better deck. Going second is only a SLIGHT disadvantage if you anticipate your opponent's move (which is crucial in higher ranking PvP).

And shame on you Gamealot! Everyone has an opinion they are entitled to on these forums. Stating in the beginning of your post to ignore the post of another is very rude. Your post is YOUR opinion. Whether or not you are a so called game designer does not make you an authority on the matter and doesn't make your suggestions any better than mine.

Bottom line, just because you lose doesn't mean you need to run and complain about this being wrong or that being wrong. There are plenty of people doing just fine in the arena the way that it is. How about looking on the other side of the screen for a minute and maybe consider the fact that YOU are the one that needs to change something with your playing style and not KI changing the game to suit a few.


Astrologist
Aug 21, 2009
1205
PhoenixDarkwing wrote:
Honestly. I see no problem in either going first or second. If you play enough pvp's then you should know how people work and it would not bother you if you go second. Because you already know what they are going to do. Really, it's not unfair at all.


Obviously you play 1v1 PvP and don't see the problem as a big issue cause you don't sit and play 4v4 where the problem is tremendously bad and the advantage heavily over exploited. Even playing 1v1 you should know that beguile is only effectively played if the person using it is going first, and the same is said about all of the dispels. The person who goes first also can cheaply rid any damage reductions upon them before casting whatever they wish.

Survivor
May 31, 2010
13
Ok honestly I think that pvp is all strategy and tactics. Its not always going to be fair for one side. Sure going first has its perks, but it depends on many factors such as teamwork and the experence of the players. A team going first who is new to pvp might lose to a team going last who is well experenced in pvp. Predicting what the other team will do will help you make good decisions. It's also important to know your spells well and when to use them. One famous quote form Sun Tzu is "know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated. When you are ignorantof the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or loseing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are sure to be defeated in every battle". I hope this info helps you. :)