Welcome to the Wizard101 Message Boards


Player Guide
Fansites
News
Game Updates
Help

Follow important game updates on Twitter @Wizard101 and @KI_Alerts, and Facebook!

For all account questions and concerns, contact Customer Support.

By posting on the Wizard101 Message Boards you agree to the Code of Conduct.

Fix Max PvP?

1
AuthorMessage
Survivor
Jul 14, 2014
1
Pretty sure many max pvpers know what I'm talking about - shadows
Remove the shadow enhanced spells from PvP?
Keep shrike? Maybe someday people will actually use dark nova when they go offensive
Ps : make lore and juju 5 pips

Survivor
Dec 10, 2012
10
I hate being that rude person but I think Kingsisle doesn't care about PvP at this point, there isn't enough people doing PvP, so there just letting it fall apart so people stop doing it. but thats my opinion

Survivor
Jan 29, 2011
14
texas123557 on Feb 19, 2018 wrote:
I hate being that rude person but I think Kingsisle doesn't care about PvP at this point, there isn't enough people doing PvP, so there just letting it fall apart so people stop doing it. but thats my opinion
First let's start off on your comment. "There isn't enough people doing pvp." If this is the way Kingsisle looks at pvp then shame on them. The game mechanics and spells have driven out a large amount of the pvp community. And if Kingsisle fixed many issues within pvp, those players will be crawling back, including me. They introduced complete RNG into their game, including shadow spell attacks that do mass damage with 4 or 5 pips only needed. Before the largest amount of damage costed 10 pips. There is simply no reason to even carry a life mastery to heal anymore at max pvp. You can lose to any school in the matter of a few rounds if RNG takes your side or even if your first taking off a shield and without even a blade dealing 2.2-2.8k damage and some schools more. There is no strategy involved in shadow pip, ok let's deal almost 3k damage. Reason being why Life, Balance and Ice have been ruling the arena. Another reason why this is so overpowered is due to pierce jewels. Players are able to pierce through resist without shrike/ infallible. I agree with pierce jewels, however I don't agree with how much pierce is allowed. Lets take a look at other reasons varying on the level, which has driven players to quit pvp. For the lower levels of pvp a few spells need to be fixed/banned or buffed. Loremaster needs a buff. It doesn't matter whether it's 5 pips with no mantle or 5 pips with lower damage, the spell needs to be buffed. (Player's have complained about the spell since it came out) Rampage is the next spell. Look kingsisle, rampage is an amazing spell. However the damages either need to be broken up into too rounds or the damage needs to be lowered by a lot. From second, you simply cannot reliably predict with triage. Next round brimstone or beetle gg. And if not, it will happen again. Many players want JuJu to be 5 pips. Insane bolt needs a buff. And finally but not least Guardian Spirit. Guardian Spirit needs to be banned from pvp. No questions or exceptions.

Survivor
Dec 10, 2009
22
AngelAngleWeave on Feb 22, 2018 wrote:
First let's start off on your comment. "There isn't enough people doing pvp." If this is the way Kingsisle looks at pvp then shame on them. The game mechanics and spells have driven out a large amount of the pvp community. And if Kingsisle fixed many issues within pvp, those players will be crawling back, including me. They introduced complete RNG into their game, including shadow spell attacks that do mass damage with 4 or 5 pips only needed. Before the largest amount of damage costed 10 pips. There is simply no reason to even carry a life mastery to heal anymore at max pvp. You can lose to any school in the matter of a few rounds if RNG takes your side or even if your first taking off a shield and without even a blade dealing 2.2-2.8k damage and some schools more. There is no strategy involved in shadow pip, ok let's deal almost 3k damage. Reason being why Life, Balance and Ice have been ruling the arena. Another reason why this is so overpowered is due to pierce jewels. Players are able to pierce through resist without shrike/ infallible. I agree with pierce jewels, however I don't agree with how much pierce is allowed. Lets take a look at other reasons varying on the level, which has driven players to quit pvp. For the lower levels of pvp a few spells need to be fixed/banned or buffed. Loremaster needs a buff. It doesn't matter whether it's 5 pips with no mantle or 5 pips with lower damage, the spell needs to be buffed. (Player's have complained about the spell since it came out) Rampage is the next spell. Look kingsisle, rampage is an amazing spell. However the damages either need to be broken up into too rounds or the damage needs to be lowered by a lot. From second, you simply cannot reliably predict with triage. Next round brimstone or beetle gg. And if not, it will happen again. Many players want JuJu to be 5 pips. Insane bolt needs a buff. And finally but not least Guardian Spirit. Guardian Spirit needs to be banned from pvp. No questions or exceptions.
Many things you have list are terrible ideas. Why ruin the game for the non-pvpers? I started pvping in the first age, but as soon as the second age came out, I knew it was broken. Many things were changed in the game which ruined it for the players who didn't pvp. I know because I was there and saw it happen. But because the pvpers were always complaining, the game was being curtailed to their wants and desires. Loremaster is perfect the way it is, Rampage is perfect he way it is, Insane Bolt is perfect the way it is, armor piercing is perfect the way it is, bad juju is perfect the way it is, and the shadow spells are perfect the way they are. Why change any of them? Simply make them unavailable in pvp if anything. I use most of those spells in pve. If you nerf them, then the non-pvpers will complain how difficult the game has become because players like you can't and/or won't adapt and want spells nerfed. I have seen this happen over the years, and I'm sick of it already.

Keep this last thought in mind next time. Pvp was ruined because of pvpers. KI is simply listening to you guys and adjusting the game to make you happy. It is not KI's fault. The fault falls squarely on the shoulders of the pvpers who keep clamoring for change. This is why all of the old school pvpers, including myself, have left.

I would like to ask KI to not change a thing. There are too many players who enjoy the game as it is currently. Please listen to those who don't pvp or pvp anymore. Please don't allow the pvpers ruin this game for the rest of us.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1030
Rainco on Mar 3, 2018 wrote:
Many things you have list are terrible ideas. Why ruin the game for the non-pvpers? I started pvping in the first age, but as soon as the second age came out, I knew it was broken. Many things were changed in the game which ruined it for the players who didn't pvp. I know because I was there and saw it happen. But because the pvpers were always complaining, the game was being curtailed to their wants and desires. Loremaster is perfect the way it is, Rampage is perfect he way it is, Insane Bolt is perfect the way it is, armor piercing is perfect the way it is, bad juju is perfect the way it is, and the shadow spells are perfect the way they are. Why change any of them? Simply make them unavailable in pvp if anything. I use most of those spells in pve. If you nerf them, then the non-pvpers will complain how difficult the game has become because players like you can't and/or won't adapt and want spells nerfed. I have seen this happen over the years, and I'm sick of it already.

Keep this last thought in mind next time. Pvp was ruined because of pvpers. KI is simply listening to you guys and adjusting the game to make you happy. It is not KI's fault. The fault falls squarely on the shoulders of the pvpers who keep clamoring for change. This is why all of the old school pvpers, including myself, have left.

I would like to ask KI to not change a thing. There are too many players who enjoy the game as it is currently. Please listen to those who don't pvp or pvp anymore. Please don't allow the pvpers ruin this game for the rest of us.
Oh brother, here we go again. First of all I was there for 1st age as well all the way through 4th age at the warlord ranks. I have seen every major change pvp has been through and participated through it.

That being said, the reason PvP is broken rests squarely on KI's shoulders. Pvp feedback isn't what ruined pvp. KI has a long history of ignoring pvp feedback that has only now started to change because KI has realized its arena is dying. Every major arena killing change was solely made by KI with no input from players:

-Jade gear?-No pvper asked for it- completely destroyed the first age meta.
-Shadow enhanced spells?- No pvper asked for it- completely drove the meta into aggro
-Reshuffle X1 and no multiplication- No pvper asked for it- completely turned mid
lvl into a turtle fest

Now as for lore and rampage- What makes these spells perfect as they are? What criterion are you using for determining that? The mindless AI that can't complain? How will netfing lore and rampage make the game more difficult? Both are of negligible use in PvE which revolves around blade stacked AoEs
If KI doesn't change things the arena will keep dying and KI will keep hemoragging customers. We've already seen updates slow down significantly since the arena exodus. Good luck keeping this game solvent for long once you've completely lost the pvp base.

Survivor
Dec 10, 2009
22
Eric Stormbringer on Mar 3, 2018 wrote:
Oh brother, here we go again. First of all I was there for 1st age as well all the way through 4th age at the warlord ranks. I have seen every major change pvp has been through and participated through it.

That being said, the reason PvP is broken rests squarely on KI's shoulders. Pvp feedback isn't what ruined pvp. KI has a long history of ignoring pvp feedback that has only now started to change because KI has realized its arena is dying. Every major arena killing change was solely made by KI with no input from players:

-Jade gear?-No pvper asked for it- completely destroyed the first age meta.
-Shadow enhanced spells?- No pvper asked for it- completely drove the meta into aggro
-Reshuffle X1 and no multiplication- No pvper asked for it- completely turned mid
lvl into a turtle fest

Now as for lore and rampage- What makes these spells perfect as they are? What criterion are you using for determining that? The mindless AI that can't complain? How will netfing lore and rampage make the game more difficult? Both are of negligible use in PvE which revolves around blade stacked AoEs
If KI doesn't change things the arena will keep dying and KI will keep hemoragging customers. We've already seen updates slow down significantly since the arena exodus. Good luck keeping this game solvent for long once you've completely lost the pvp base.
That's great that you pvped through several generations. I've also seen all the major changes in pvp. A person doesn't have to pvp to see the changes. Pvp has been changing for years. Why do you think so many pvpers have been leaving during that time frame. This is nothing new.

Is that the only excuse you have for not having jade gear in pvp? There are tons of gear that pvpers didn't ask for. I guess we should eliminate those too if your at it. The same is applied to shadow spells. There are tons of spells pvpers didn't ask for. I guess those spells should be eliminated as well. The reshuffle change was in fact a request from the pvp community. The pve community had no problem with it. There is also the fact that pvpers use these gear and spells. If you eliminate them, you'll end up alienating part of the pvp community. It also shows that the pvp can't even agree on this. Ultimately, your point is moot on this subject.

Now for lore and rampage. What makes you think these spells are broken? What criterion are you using for determining it? The pvper who lacks skill and an imagination? How will nerfing them fix pvp? KI has nerfed spells over the years to improve pvp but all of the nerfs failed. The problems are still there. These spells are only negligible in your mind. You can't speak for anyone else. For your information, I have seen these spells many times in pve, so your claim that they are negligible is false.

Pvp has been dying since the end/beginning of 1st and 2nd age pvp. The pvp community is small. KI may suffer some if it disappears, but Wizard101 would be non-existent without the pve community. The vast majority of the Wizard101 world are pve players, not pvp. Good luck keeping this game relevant without the pve community. As a FYI to you, Wizard101 was first created without pvp and did just fine.

Either follow my suggestions to fix pvp, so pve won't get alienated. Or, scrap pvp and start over.

Survivor
Jan 29, 2011
14
Rainco on Mar 5, 2018 wrote:
That's great that you pvped through several generations. I've also seen all the major changes in pvp. A person doesn't have to pvp to see the changes. Pvp has been changing for years. Why do you think so many pvpers have been leaving during that time frame. This is nothing new.

Is that the only excuse you have for not having jade gear in pvp? There are tons of gear that pvpers didn't ask for. I guess we should eliminate those too if your at it. The same is applied to shadow spells. There are tons of spells pvpers didn't ask for. I guess those spells should be eliminated as well. The reshuffle change was in fact a request from the pvp community. The pve community had no problem with it. There is also the fact that pvpers use these gear and spells. If you eliminate them, you'll end up alienating part of the pvp community. It also shows that the pvp can't even agree on this. Ultimately, your point is moot on this subject.

Now for lore and rampage. What makes you think these spells are broken? What criterion are you using for determining it? The pvper who lacks skill and an imagination? How will nerfing them fix pvp? KI has nerfed spells over the years to improve pvp but all of the nerfs failed. The problems are still there. These spells are only negligible in your mind. You can't speak for anyone else. For your information, I have seen these spells many times in pve, so your claim that they are negligible is false.

Pvp has been dying since the end/beginning of 1st and 2nd age pvp. The pvp community is small. KI may suffer some if it disappears, but Wizard101 would be non-existent without the pve community. The vast majority of the Wizard101 world are pve players, not pvp. Good luck keeping this game relevant without the pve community. As a FYI to you, Wizard101 was first created without pvp and did just fine.

Either follow my suggestions to fix pvp, so pve won't get alienated. Or, scrap pvp and start over.
This is completely false. No pvp player asked for any of those spells, changes or gear. Whether they ban them from pvp or nerf them it's up to them. However these issues need to be addressed. Look pvp at one point had the bigger community than pve by far. It's the changes that Kingsisle has made that drove the fan base out. They were making more money and had a much bigger population of players. Pve might've been in the game first, however once pvp was introduced, the roles changed. Also goodluck keeping a game running forever on just pve, most players want other good end game activities. This is why several other mmo's thrive is because of the pvp within it. And oh boy, how is lore and ramp broken in pvp? When an opponent uses ramp from first, the wizard going second needs to predict with triage, every single time. While brimstone or fire beetle will finish the opponent up, especially at the lower levels. Please go survive at magus, grand or legendary pvp a ramp from second. It's not the easiest task. And if you live it will happen again. The spell is extremely overpowered. As for lore this a spell the pvp community has asked to be nerfed since it came out. With 4 pips, it does a mass amount of damage, including a mantle and weakness. Starting at 12 pips assuming the balance has 100% power pips that means lore can be casted 5 times. Dealing massive damage, making your opponent to fizzle and cover them in weaknesses. Not including being able to just build up more pips and spam again. There is no other spell as overpowered as lore in the game, not including shadow spells. Shadow spells are an entire other subject. They need to be banned from pvp which I am sure you will not have an issue with since you are only protecting pve.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1030
Rainco on Mar 5, 2018 wrote:
That's great that you pvped through several generations. I've also seen all the major changes in pvp. A person doesn't have to pvp to see the changes. Pvp has been changing for years. Why do you think so many pvpers have been leaving during that time frame. This is nothing new.

Is that the only excuse you have for not having jade gear in pvp? There are tons of gear that pvpers didn't ask for. I guess we should eliminate those too if your at it. The same is applied to shadow spells. There are tons of spells pvpers didn't ask for. I guess those spells should be eliminated as well. The reshuffle change was in fact a request from the pvp community. The pve community had no problem with it. There is also the fact that pvpers use these gear and spells. If you eliminate them, you'll end up alienating part of the pvp community. It also shows that the pvp can't even agree on this. Ultimately, your point is moot on this subject.

Now for lore and rampage. What makes you think these spells are broken? What criterion are you using for determining it? The pvper who lacks skill and an imagination? How will nerfing them fix pvp? KI has nerfed spells over the years to improve pvp but all of the nerfs failed. The problems are still there. These spells are only negligible in your mind. You can't speak for anyone else. For your information, I have seen these spells many times in pve, so your claim that they are negligible is false.

Pvp has been dying since the end/beginning of 1st and 2nd age pvp. The pvp community is small. KI may suffer some if it disappears, but Wizard101 would be non-existent without the pve community. The vast majority of the Wizard101 world are pve players, not pvp. Good luck keeping this game relevant without the pve community. As a FYI to you, Wizard101 was first created without pvp and did just fine.

Either follow my suggestions to fix pvp, so pve won't get alienated. Or, scrap pvp and start over.
Obviously one does not need to PvP to see the arena has changed. However, you do need to pvp to understand exactly what changed, what caused those changes and what effects those changes have. Otherwise, you end up making uninformed arguments like "Pvp feedback is what killed PvP".

My excuse for not having Jade in PvP? First of all my reference to jade gear was to show you an example of the types of things added to PvP(that no one asked for) that led to its downfall, thus countering your assertion that "PvP feedback is what killed PvP." No PvPer ever requested the reshuffle change- I challenge you to find me a source where a serious PvPer suggests such a thing. You're right that lots of spells and gear was added that PvPers haven't asked for. However, most of those spells and gear were actually balanced. When pvp experts rightly pointed out that certain aspects such as Jade were broken- they were ignored. Of course Pvpers don't agree on everything. Just like Pvers don't as well. Not sure how that's relevant when it comes to feedback.

How is Rampage broken? It's a damage spike that is completely uncounterable from second unless you're related to Madam Cleo. How is Lore broken? It deals far above balance's dpp while adding not 1 but 2 disruptive effects. Tell me what "skill and imagination" is lacking in order to counter these spells? How would a nerf to these spells help? It would be a start in allowing other classes a better opportunity to compete with the top tiers for one. Simply because someone chooses to play ineffectively by using ineffective spells in PvE does not make those spells relevant. I've seen people use pierce blades in PvE too- doesn't make them any less irrelevant.

See that's the thing. No Pvper wants the PvE community to disappear but PvE certainly seem to be trying their hardest to make PvP disappear. Your "suggestions" are nothing more than KI ignoring PvP which it has been doing for the life of this game. Doesn't seem to be working all too well.

Mastermind
Nov 08, 2015
387
Eric Stormbringer on Mar 7, 2018 wrote:
Obviously one does not need to PvP to see the arena has changed. However, you do need to pvp to understand exactly what changed, what caused those changes and what effects those changes have. Otherwise, you end up making uninformed arguments like "Pvp feedback is what killed PvP".

My excuse for not having Jade in PvP? First of all my reference to jade gear was to show you an example of the types of things added to PvP(that no one asked for) that led to its downfall, thus countering your assertion that "PvP feedback is what killed PvP." No PvPer ever requested the reshuffle change- I challenge you to find me a source where a serious PvPer suggests such a thing. You're right that lots of spells and gear was added that PvPers haven't asked for. However, most of those spells and gear were actually balanced. When pvp experts rightly pointed out that certain aspects such as Jade were broken- they were ignored. Of course Pvpers don't agree on everything. Just like Pvers don't as well. Not sure how that's relevant when it comes to feedback.

How is Rampage broken? It's a damage spike that is completely uncounterable from second unless you're related to Madam Cleo. How is Lore broken? It deals far above balance's dpp while adding not 1 but 2 disruptive effects. Tell me what "skill and imagination" is lacking in order to counter these spells? How would a nerf to these spells help? It would be a start in allowing other classes a better opportunity to compete with the top tiers for one. Simply because someone chooses to play ineffectively by using ineffective spells in PvE does not make those spells relevant. I've seen people use pierce blades in PvE too- doesn't make them any less irrelevant.

See that's the thing. No Pvper wants the PvE community to disappear but PvE certainly seem to be trying their hardest to make PvP disappear. Your "suggestions" are nothing more than KI ignoring PvP which it has been doing for the life of this game. Doesn't seem to be working all too well.
I want to comment on what you said about Loremaster being broken.

Back in November, I was doing 1v1 turn based matches on my Death to get tickets for Participation Trophies. I thought turn based matches were really balanced, and I had a strategy for what I should do against every school... except Balance. Once the Loremaster and Gaze spamming started, I had no reliable way to handle it, and I would always end up losing to them.

Oh well, there must surely be ways to handle this, right? :D I asked all my PvP friends for advice on how to handle Loremaster and Gaze spam, and I noticed their strategies all contained one key element: get a pet with Balance-Ward.

I think nothing says PvP is broken louder than when everyone advises you that the only way to handle level 125 Balances is to specifically set for them on your pet.

Survivor
Dec 10, 2009
22
The excuses you to have given are viable excuses to change the game, not pvp, the game. The changes you are asking for will affect the rest of the game negatively. The spells you are complaining about a very effective at lower levels and can be at the upper levels in pve. The solutions you are providing are band aide solutions. They will not fix the problem. Here is a math problem for you. If nerfing spells to improve pvp has a 100% probability fail rate, what will be the probability success rate for nerfing loremaster and rampage?

Jade gear was not made for pvp. If it was, the it could only be purchased with tickets, and it would have the "pvp only" flag on it. It is like any other gear that can be received outside of pvp. So, using the excuse that pvp didn't ask for it would apply to every piece of gear outside of pvp. This can also apply to spells.

To see the exact changes in pvp, the how, and why, a person does not need to play it. There are a tons of forums that people can read online to understand these changes. Do I believe a change is necessary in pvp? Absolutely, but the changes you are asking for will not fix pvp and hurt pve. KI have a lot of customers they have to deal with, not just pvp. It is important to think how your changes can affect the game as a whole positively and negatively.

Here are a couple of solutions to help fix pvp:
-First, Make all of pvp timed matches ranging from 10 to 60 minutes (the tournament is a great example). If both players are still alive, then a winner is chosen. Perhaps who ever does the most damage wins? Just image if Jade users always losing because they either don't or rarely attack.
-Second, just like some of the tournament matches but permanent, allow team one pick spells. After their turn is over, allow team two pick spells. this will allow players to respond to spells more easily. In my opinion, this rule should be implemented in all of Wizard101.

Keep in mind, there will always be spammers in pvp.

Survivor
Dec 10, 2009
22
If spammers continue to be a problem, then do the same fix that was implemented for the dispels or something similar to it. It is easier said than done I think

The biggest thing you need right now is support, which you lack. KI more likely will not listen to you now because you lack player support. If you take my ideas and use them or critique them or come up with others that will not affect the pve community negatively, I'm willing to bet that others who don't pvp will support you. I would support you. I want pvp to succeed, but other players who don't pvp must be taken into consideration. You may say that loremaster and rampage are irrelevant in pve, but that is only your opinion. My opinion is that they are relevant, but when you simply brush my opinions aside, then you will never get my support to fix pvp.

My next question to you, is what can we come up together that would fix pvp? There needs to be compromise and consideration. Some ideas may not be the best, but they may be better than nothing. Perhaps nerfing spells may be the only option, but let's see if there are other options available.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1030
BrahmShadow on Mar 7, 2018 wrote:
I want to comment on what you said about Loremaster being broken.

Back in November, I was doing 1v1 turn based matches on my Death to get tickets for Participation Trophies. I thought turn based matches were really balanced, and I had a strategy for what I should do against every school... except Balance. Once the Loremaster and Gaze spamming started, I had no reliable way to handle it, and I would always end up losing to them.

Oh well, there must surely be ways to handle this, right? :D I asked all my PvP friends for advice on how to handle Loremaster and Gaze spam, and I noticed their strategies all contained one key element: get a pet with Balance-Ward.

I think nothing says PvP is broken louder than when everyone advises you that the only way to handle level 125 Balances is to specifically set for them on your pet.
It is a sad state of affairs indeed. The meta is so stratified that the current ideal pet needs 3 wards against the 3 top tier schools- balance, ice and fire to even compete somewhat effectively.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1030
Rainco on Mar 7, 2018 wrote:
The excuses you to have given are viable excuses to change the game, not pvp, the game. The changes you are asking for will affect the rest of the game negatively. The spells you are complaining about a very effective at lower levels and can be at the upper levels in pve. The solutions you are providing are band aide solutions. They will not fix the problem. Here is a math problem for you. If nerfing spells to improve pvp has a 100% probability fail rate, what will be the probability success rate for nerfing loremaster and rampage?

Jade gear was not made for pvp. If it was, the it could only be purchased with tickets, and it would have the "pvp only" flag on it. It is like any other gear that can be received outside of pvp. So, using the excuse that pvp didn't ask for it would apply to every piece of gear outside of pvp. This can also apply to spells.

To see the exact changes in pvp, the how, and why, a person does not need to play it. There are a tons of forums that people can read online to understand these changes. Do I believe a change is necessary in pvp? Absolutely, but the changes you are asking for will not fix pvp and hurt pve. KI have a lot of customers they have to deal with, not just pvp. It is important to think how your changes can affect the game as a whole positively and negatively.

Here are a couple of solutions to help fix pvp:
-First, Make all of pvp timed matches ranging from 10 to 60 minutes (the tournament is a great example). If both players are still alive, then a winner is chosen. Perhaps who ever does the most damage wins? Just image if Jade users always losing because they either don't or rarely attack.
-Second, just like some of the tournament matches but permanent, allow team one pick spells. After their turn is over, allow team two pick spells. this will allow players to respond to spells more easily. In my opinion, this rule should be implemented in all of Wizard101.

Keep in mind, there will always be spammers in pvp.
A nerf to loremaster and rampage would not completely fix pvp. PvP needs a lot more work than that to be fixed. However, it certainly would help particularly when it comes to class balance. I am not sure where you are getting this idea that nerfs have 100% fail rate. Most of the nerfs in this game were successful. Wildbolt, for example, was rightly changed preventing storm from becoming the only class in the arena. Chain stunning was nerfed out of existence, dispel spamming received a rightful nerf. The only times nerfs don't work are when a)The nerf is too little(such as the case with guardian spirit) or b)the nerf was poorly thought out and/or based on a lack of understanding on the devs part(such as with the bad juju tc nerf).

I am not sure why you keep claiming that I am using Jade Gear not being made for PvP as an "excuse". I am not claiming that Jade Gear is bad because it was not made for PvP- that argument would make no sense. As I have previously stated- my point with Jade Gear was to show you an example of things that broke PvP that no one asked for thus disproving your point that feedback is what led to Pvp's downfall. Frankly, it's just intellectual dishonesty at this point for you to claim a point I am not making particularly when I was very clear in both posts. Jade gear wasn't bad simply because it wasn't made for PvP. Most gear isn't and it ends up being balanced- what made jade gear bad was its massive overwhelming resistance and healing statistics in an era when no counters were available. Pvpers pointed this out to KI and KI ignored them.

If your claim is that you can have a complete understanding of PvP changes without actually playing it then you are simply fooling yourself. Forum posts and feedback only cover a very small portion of what goes on in the arena. Unlike PvE where you can go to a wiki and find out info on a boss who will never change unless KI makes an update- PvP is dynamic and ever-shifting.

To be continued

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1030
Rainco on Mar 7, 2018 wrote:
The excuses you to have given are viable excuses to change the game, not pvp, the game. The changes you are asking for will affect the rest of the game negatively. The spells you are complaining about a very effective at lower levels and can be at the upper levels in pve. The solutions you are providing are band aide solutions. They will not fix the problem. Here is a math problem for you. If nerfing spells to improve pvp has a 100% probability fail rate, what will be the probability success rate for nerfing loremaster and rampage?

Jade gear was not made for pvp. If it was, the it could only be purchased with tickets, and it would have the "pvp only" flag on it. It is like any other gear that can be received outside of pvp. So, using the excuse that pvp didn't ask for it would apply to every piece of gear outside of pvp. This can also apply to spells.

To see the exact changes in pvp, the how, and why, a person does not need to play it. There are a tons of forums that people can read online to understand these changes. Do I believe a change is necessary in pvp? Absolutely, but the changes you are asking for will not fix pvp and hurt pve. KI have a lot of customers they have to deal with, not just pvp. It is important to think how your changes can affect the game as a whole positively and negatively.

Here are a couple of solutions to help fix pvp:
-First, Make all of pvp timed matches ranging from 10 to 60 minutes (the tournament is a great example). If both players are still alive, then a winner is chosen. Perhaps who ever does the most damage wins? Just image if Jade users always losing because they either don't or rarely attack.
-Second, just like some of the tournament matches but permanent, allow team one pick spells. After their turn is over, allow team two pick spells. this will allow players to respond to spells more easily. In my opinion, this rule should be implemented in all of Wizard101.

Keep in mind, there will always be spammers in pvp.
Now your claim is that making changes to Loremaster and Burning Rampage will negatively impact PvE. How so? PvE played effectively involves buffed AoE spells for mobs and buffed high-cost spells for bosses. This is not an opinion this is a fact. The only exception to these rules is in certain cheating boss fights-none of which Lore or Rampage are effective in. In fact Loremaster and Burning Rampage could cease to exist and it would have 0 impact on the ability of Fire and Balance wizards to effectively complete PvE. Now, of course, one can choose to play those spells anyhow. However, you are then making the choice to play sub-optimally. This is your prerogative as a player but it should not be used as an excuse for why spells that are having a large negative impact on PvP should remain unnerfed. In effect that is stating that a PvE player's choice to play ineffectively takes precedence over a healthy PvP environment.

Now on to your solutions

1) Solution 1 will not work since players would simply build for a massive last turn hit and simply run down the timer till then. All this "solution" does is attempt to sweep PvP's problems under the rung.

2) Now, this solution is actually viable and something KI has said it is considering implementing. Why it has not yet been implemented is anyone's guess.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1030
Rainco on Mar 7, 2018 wrote:
If spammers continue to be a problem, then do the same fix that was implemented for the dispels or something similar to it. It is easier said than done I think

The biggest thing you need right now is support, which you lack. KI more likely will not listen to you now because you lack player support. If you take my ideas and use them or critique them or come up with others that will not affect the pve community negatively, I'm willing to bet that others who don't pvp will support you. I would support you. I want pvp to succeed, but other players who don't pvp must be taken into consideration. You may say that loremaster and rampage are irrelevant in pve, but that is only your opinion. My opinion is that they are relevant, but when you simply brush my opinions aside, then you will never get my support to fix pvp.

My next question to you, is what can we come up together that would fix pvp? There needs to be compromise and consideration. Some ideas may not be the best, but they may be better than nothing. Perhaps nerfing spells may be the only option, but let's see if there are other options available.
Pvpers are long past the point of attempting to gather support. We tried that over the years to no avail. Pvp players are simply leaving the game for greener pastures. There are a ton of other options for competitive ccg games where the developers actually pay close attention to the state of their game and aren't afraid to buff or nerf as necessary. KI is at a do or die moment when it comes to the arena. They either take a risk and make the huge but necessary revamps- or they continue to watch their PvP community simply walk away.

As for what can be done- we at Duelist 101 already compiled and sent a comprehensive article to KI about changes that would vastly improve the state of PvP. It's up the devs if they take the advice.

Finally, I do not say this condescendingly but PvE players have no bearing on what's needed in PvP. They simply don't have the knowledge or arena experience to make the determination of what works or will work in the arena. I wouldn't ask a Wizard City initiate to help determine what's needed in Empyrea part 2. Similarly, I would not ask a PvE player to determine what's needed in PvP.

Explorer
Dec 26, 2010
95
Rainco on Mar 7, 2018 wrote:
If spammers continue to be a problem, then do the same fix that was implemented for the dispels or something similar to it. It is easier said than done I think

The biggest thing you need right now is support, which you lack. KI more likely will not listen to you now because you lack player support. If you take my ideas and use them or critique them or come up with others that will not affect the pve community negatively, I'm willing to bet that others who don't pvp will support you. I would support you. I want pvp to succeed, but other players who don't pvp must be taken into consideration. You may say that loremaster and rampage are irrelevant in pve, but that is only your opinion. My opinion is that they are relevant, but when you simply brush my opinions aside, then you will never get my support to fix pvp.

My next question to you, is what can we come up together that would fix pvp? There needs to be compromise and consideration. Some ideas may not be the best, but they may be better than nothing. Perhaps nerfing spells may be the only option, but let's see if there are other options available.
You say PvPers need support but lets be honest here even if we came up with suggestions that all PvErs would like we still would not get support as in the long run if you don't PvP then most people just don't care what goes on in it since it does not apply to them. Even if it does change PvE game play most people will complain some then get over it as PvE is vastly easier than PvP, after all the computer is not a person. It does not change strategies or the cheats that bosses use and for most bosses there are multiple strategies to defeat them.

The other thing is how would these idea negatively affect the PvE community? It is entirely possible to make it so that spells are only unusable or nerfed in PvP only. There are plenty of good examples of this already such as the minion spell tc that aren't usable in the arena or the Guardian Spirit pet card that comes with the cherub pet.

You say come up with other solutions but if you actually look at the forums you can see that people have come up with multiple solutions that are all shades of the same thing. Nerf certain spells, add pips to them, or take away one of the debuffs that makes them impossible to counter. Same with gear, there have been other solutions besides flat out banning gear like jade gear but most solutions still would like the stats to either get redone to make them more bearable or make it so when doing teams only one person can have it not 2 or even 3.

Again just like with spells banning jade gear from PvP does NOT hurt the PvE community. It would be banned from PvP. Still completely usable in PvE for bosses that require a healer to defeat them. It doesn't matter if no one asked for it or not it's still a big problem in PvP and deserves to be fixed.

As for not needing to play to know what's going on. Well I suppose to a point you could figure out some of what people are talking about but like most things in life to truly understand you need to experience it.

Explorer
Dec 26, 2010
95
Rainco on Mar 7, 2018 wrote:
The excuses you to have given are viable excuses to change the game, not pvp, the game. The changes you are asking for will affect the rest of the game negatively. The spells you are complaining about a very effective at lower levels and can be at the upper levels in pve. The solutions you are providing are band aide solutions. They will not fix the problem. Here is a math problem for you. If nerfing spells to improve pvp has a 100% probability fail rate, what will be the probability success rate for nerfing loremaster and rampage?

Jade gear was not made for pvp. If it was, the it could only be purchased with tickets, and it would have the "pvp only" flag on it. It is like any other gear that can be received outside of pvp. So, using the excuse that pvp didn't ask for it would apply to every piece of gear outside of pvp. This can also apply to spells.

To see the exact changes in pvp, the how, and why, a person does not need to play it. There are a tons of forums that people can read online to understand these changes. Do I believe a change is necessary in pvp? Absolutely, but the changes you are asking for will not fix pvp and hurt pve. KI have a lot of customers they have to deal with, not just pvp. It is important to think how your changes can affect the game as a whole positively and negatively.

Here are a couple of solutions to help fix pvp:
-First, Make all of pvp timed matches ranging from 10 to 60 minutes (the tournament is a great example). If both players are still alive, then a winner is chosen. Perhaps who ever does the most damage wins? Just image if Jade users always losing because they either don't or rarely attack.
-Second, just like some of the tournament matches but permanent, allow team one pick spells. After their turn is over, allow team two pick spells. this will allow players to respond to spells more easily. In my opinion, this rule should be implemented in all of Wizard101.

Keep in mind, there will always be spammers in pvp.
These spells we are complaining about you say are good for upper and lower level game play. While for upper level some of them such as lore can be useful that's true when you look at how the game is set up then they are NOT supposed to be used for lower level game play.

A good portion of PvP is lvl 30 and lower. For the first craftable spells you don't even have access to the dungeon the recipes are in until you have unlocked Mooshu which for most wizards is about lvl 30. So in reality unless you are getting tc cards from packs you should not be seeing spells from any PvP or PvE under lvl 30. Since it also takes a legendary crafter rank to unlock these spell recipes you really shouldn't see these spells commonly (not everyone will sit and farm lore for forever) until lvl 60 when you have unlocked the quest in Zafaria.

Burning Rampage should not be possible in any PvP or PvE under lvl 70 as that is about the lvl wizards unlock Avalon where the key room for this dungeon is.

Loremaster drops a lot of spells herself but again you don't actually unlock Dragonspyre until your wizard is about lvl 40. So you should not be seeing spells she drops in PvP or PvE until a wizard is around that lvl.

Basically if you are using any type of craftable spell under lvl 40 in PvP or PvE then you have gone around the way the game was set up to obtain them as they are not meant for very low lvl game play (you could even argue for play under lvl 60 since drop rates are so low). You should be closing in on about a third of the way through lvl progression by the time they become available to you by farming loremaster.

It's entirely possible to go around the set up since you only need to be a member or have bought the zone, and a high lvl friend to get to places like burning rampage's stone key room. That does not mean that it should be allowed to happen though. Lvl locking these spells or nerfing at least for PvP only would make sense.

Delver
Mar 19, 2011
263
"I was born a Balance Wizard and I will die a Balance Wizard."

I think this is a really cool thread. Lots of insightful essays in this thread.

The point of the game for me is making friends and PvP. My specialty is 2v2.

At one time, I was a max level 1V1 Balance Warlord, can't remember what Age it was. It was before the Lore Master spell came out. I spent months trying to get that spell to drop before I decided that I should just learn about crafting and crafted the spell.

I have good gear, some great pets. I am an expert at hatching Balance pets. I can have scary PvP stats. Still, I lose exactly 50% of my matches. And the matches I win are sometimes epic matches. I have defeated Jaded Life wizards who use GS

Other than Juju spamming, I do not think PvP is "broken."

I think I just need to learn how to be a better Balance Wizard.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
Liam Swiftwalker on Mar 17, 2018 wrote:
"I was born a Balance Wizard and I will die a Balance Wizard."

I think this is a really cool thread. Lots of insightful essays in this thread.

The point of the game for me is making friends and PvP. My specialty is 2v2.

At one time, I was a max level 1V1 Balance Warlord, can't remember what Age it was. It was before the Lore Master spell came out. I spent months trying to get that spell to drop before I decided that I should just learn about crafting and crafted the spell.

I have good gear, some great pets. I am an expert at hatching Balance pets. I can have scary PvP stats. Still, I lose exactly 50% of my matches. And the matches I win are sometimes epic matches. I have defeated Jaded Life wizards who use GS

Other than Juju spamming, I do not think PvP is "broken."

I think I just need to learn how to be a better Balance Wizard.
So you dont see a problem with Lore spammers but you have a problem with Juju? Balance the school that has a damage bubble with no set shields? The school that get every school shield/blades/dispels for free? The school that can use any school to hit? The School that can deal damage while taking pips and aura? Now lets look at death. Deaths spells contradict themselves such as self damage spells being more useful to other schools, drain not getting full enchant or heal back, damage spells have bad base damage/lack effects.

What players dont realize is its not the spell but its jade gear. Now lets say you remove jade gear its still not fair for death hitters who have to run mass pierce/damage but still have to blade to deal decent or average damage.

The moral is everyone quick single out juju when death has some of the most flaws out of the 7 schools in this game.

Delver
Nov 27, 2013
279
I have heard the argument that wakaflame201 makes from many death wizards. I don't buy it.

Death has hits that return health, the enchant they get is a full enchant. 2/3 of it goes into damage and 1/3 of it goes into health. So that complaint does not wash in my book.

I have faced many excellent death opponents who win their matches without resorting to juju or jade gear.

if KI is going to give stun shields and dispel shields, they should give a shield for juju the same, juju is like an all-school dispel in reality. And in my view all self-damage spells, no matter who uses them, should reduce your max health for the rest of the match, and not be able to be healed back.

Dear KI, please fix this before the pvp queues are completely empty.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
ChicoValerian on Mar 31, 2018 wrote:
I have heard the argument that wakaflame201 makes from many death wizards. I don't buy it.

Death has hits that return health, the enchant they get is a full enchant. 2/3 of it goes into damage and 1/3 of it goes into health. So that complaint does not wash in my book.

I have faced many excellent death opponents who win their matches without resorting to juju or jade gear.

if KI is going to give stun shields and dispel shields, they should give a shield for juju the same, juju is like an all-school dispel in reality. And in my view all self-damage spells, no matter who uses them, should reduce your max health for the rest of the match, and not be able to be healed back.

Dear KI, please fix this before the pvp queues are completely empty.
Ok so explain self damage spells are used better on other schools? The self damage spells still do way more damage to death than other schools because of the factor of damage and pierce. Death can't even blade while using their own utility which other schools use it freely without delaying their offensive capabilities. Not to mention death x pip spell is a minion which has nothing to do with the overall schools role in the game.

Before you say this is irrelevant, lets take a look at the other schools x spells.

Fire: Back draft, heck hound: Specialty is damage over time spells and traps

Life: Dryad; Specialty is healing

Myth: Troll, Cyclops; Specialty is Minions

Ice: frozen Armor, ice armor; Specialty is defense

Storm: tempest, supercharge; Specialty is offense

balance: Judge; specialty is a mix of everything

Death: Animate; stealing life force

Delver
Nov 27, 2013
279
tell me one other school that has pvp players who use the same spell fifty or sixty or seventy times in a match.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
ChicoValerian on Apr 1, 2018 wrote:
tell me one other school that has pvp players who use the same spell fifty or sixty or seventy times in a match.
Easy...

Life: Satyr, fairy and weaver

Balance: Lore master

But name another school that has to risk their whole offense and health to use their own utility spells? But on another note you think juju or any other self damage spell for that matter will be useful without jade? Self damage spells do more harm but other schools can use them without a fraction of the risky because they dont need death damage or pierce. Death is a contradiction because its required to have good damage and pierce to deal subpar damage but while still need a minimum of like 1-3 blades and no access to a trained damage bubble but a pet spell that also takes 3 pip that is limited to only 3 card which other schools beside Life can change it instantly while packing the number of bubbles they placed in deck.

Explorer
Dec 26, 2010
95
wakaflame201 on Apr 2, 2018 wrote:
Easy...

Life: Satyr, fairy and weaver

Balance: Lore master

But name another school that has to risk their whole offense and health to use their own utility spells? But on another note you think juju or any other self damage spell for that matter will be useful without jade? Self damage spells do more harm but other schools can use them without a fraction of the risky because they dont need death damage or pierce. Death is a contradiction because its required to have good damage and pierce to deal subpar damage but while still need a minimum of like 1-3 blades and no access to a trained damage bubble but a pet spell that also takes 3 pip that is limited to only 3 card which other schools beside Life can change it instantly while packing the number of bubbles they placed in deck.
The thing is no other school haseasily accessed utility spells like a death does except for maybe life and balance, considering they're all focused on healing and being a mix of other schools this makes sense. Schools like fire ice and storm have one blade that is learned naturally ,not by going to a vendor. Death thx to Dark Pact has 2. Seeing as the blade is only 10% less powerful than an actual death blade it makes sense to have it cost pips and do a little damage, it compensates for the fact that death is using a blade that no other school has natural access too (and by natural I mean they can't learn it, only get it by using tc).

I looked up all possible death spells and these utility spells you're talking about that do damage are actually only 4 spells Dark Pact, Empower, Bad juju, and Sacrifice. My reason for Dark Pact is above but lets look at the others. Empower give you pips. No other school has a way to naturally gain pips. Since you are using an ability no one else can get without a training point to go learn the aura (even then have to be hit with 4 pip spell at least for it to work) the damage you take is entirely fair. It levels the playing field since no one else can do that. The same with bad juju. No balance weakness is as strong and any attacks that give a weakness cost way more pips than a juju does (Efreet is good example costs 8 pips for that 90% weakness). Sacrifice does not cost you anything. You take damage yes (300) but then heal not only the damage you took but another 450 on top of that which equals more than a fairy heal(heals 700). Does your damage stat decrease amount you gain back, yes but you have a second heal available that works better than any other schools except life (availing hands and fire schools damage over time/heals don't even come close to comparable).

Death can pvp without these spells and win I've seen it done. If you choose to use them then learn to work around their disadvantages don't blame the system.

Delver
Nov 27, 2013
279
wakaflame201 on Apr 2, 2018 wrote:
Easy...

Life: Satyr, fairy and weaver

Balance: Lore master

But name another school that has to risk their whole offense and health to use their own utility spells? But on another note you think juju or any other self damage spell for that matter will be useful without jade? Self damage spells do more harm but other schools can use them without a fraction of the risky because they dont need death damage or pierce. Death is a contradiction because its required to have good damage and pierce to deal subpar damage but while still need a minimum of like 1-3 blades and no access to a trained damage bubble but a pet spell that also takes 3 pip that is limited to only 3 card which other schools beside Life can change it instantly while packing the number of bubbles they placed in deck.
.um, none of those spells are use 50, 60, or 70 times per match.

1