Anyway you look at it, without the 2nd team having shields, if storm and fire use blades that do not require pips, Team is finished!
No Team can survive 2 Earthquakes, Meteor strike or Fire Dragon with 2 blades, Storm Lord with 2 blades, especially since you can use gargantuan on all these attacks.
No question this can work with first turn advantage and also no question that most of the time it can go off without a hitch. However, I do still have a couple questions if you can indulge me. With myth, I see you can get 100% accuracy with crafted gear and there are +21% power pip athame and ring... but that just gets you to 82% power pip chance. How do you configure them for 100% accuracy with 100% power pip chance? Initially, I was just wondering about the myth, but, the question really applies to all of them since the fire and storm will have to have at least 7 pips on round 3.
At this point, its all intellectual curiosity. I mostly ask just for the gargantuan issue. I'm not ruling out a specially hatched pet as the filler here, but I'm just not seeing how you can get 100% power pip, with 100% accuracy in order to use gargantuan on round 3 instead of sniper or some similar card. It just strikes me as a very tight window. With both myth at the end, you chain stunning gaps after round 2 which means that there can be absolutely no fizzle and no lack of pips on your way to the top of round three. Of course, fire would always have meteor which can be gargantuaned without needing full power pip chance, and storm could go with gargantuan tempest instead of storm lord since lord's stun would be useless at this point as well... so I guess really its just the two myth that must have 100% accuracy and 100% power pip. How would you do that with gear only?
Excellent question and no, I have not found a way to get myth, storm, fire, or ice to 100% power pip percentage.
However, with the 21% ring and athame and even a pet with 5% pp chance, that give you 87%. No, that is not 100%, so, if and when those times do happen, there still is simplify and elucidate to save your hide. Or, what one might do, is use empower while 1st person stuns then 1st one empowers while 2 one earthquakes. There is always a way.
Excellent question and no, I have not found a way to get myth, storm, fire, or ice to 100% power pip percentage.
However, with the 21% ring and athame and even a pet with 5% pp chance, that give you 87%. No, that is not 100%, so, if and when those times do happen, there still is simplify and elucidate to save your hide. Or, what one might do, is use empower while 1st person stuns then 1st one empowers while 2 one earthquakes. There is always a way.
I didn't think about empower... huh. Well, since I wrote this, I was researching. If myth goes with commander gear and the +21% power pip athame and ring, then it brings your total power pip chance to 97% with accuracy bonus of +16%. At that point, a pet is easily in range of bridging that gap. Storm and Fire can both get pets to take them to 100% accuracy so with first turn advantage, we're done.
Excellent question and no, I have not found a way to get myth, storm, fire, or ice to 100% power pip percentage.
However, with the 21% ring and athame and even a pet with 5% pp chance, that give you 87%. No, that is not 100%, so, if and when those times do happen, there still is simplify and elucidate to save your hide. Or, what one might do, is use empower while 1st person stuns then 1st one empowers while 2 one earthquakes. There is always a way.
So check this out... I just ran numbers for those ice folks who have hatched a pet for both spell-defying and spell-proof. The ones that go max resistance to all (which I have at a possible 59%). Using blade and treasure blade (so as not to waste any pips) for both fire and storm and assuming the best possible damage for a gargantuan humungofrog and earthquake... without critical, these guys would (drum roll please)...... live. It could vary a bit, but using fairly typical damage values for fire and storm gear at level 58 (+65% storm and +46% fire) and assuming the command gear scenario I mentioned earlier for the myth, I have the total damage (over three rounds for the fire dragon) at 2973. Now, I'm not saying this is by any means likely, cause it isn't... but, its both possible and slightly amusing. ;)
Anyway you look at it, without the 2nd team having shields, if storm and fire use blades that do not require pips, Team is finished!
No Team can survive 2 Earthquakes, Meteor strike or Fire Dragon with 2 blades, Storm Lord with 2 blades, especially since you can use gargantuan on all these attacks.
No question this can work with first turn advantage and also no question that most of the time it can go off without a hitch. However, I do still have a couple questions if you can indulge me. With myth, I see you can get 100% accuracy with crafted gear and there are +21% power pip athame and ring... but that just gets you to 82% power pip chance. How do you configure them for 100% accuracy with 100% power pip chance? Initially, I was just wondering about the myth, but, the question really applies to all of them since the fire and storm will have to have at least 7 pips on round 3.
At this point, its all intellectual curiosity. I mostly ask just for the gargantuan issue. I'm not ruling out a specially hatched pet as the filler here, but I'm just not seeing how you can get 100% power pip, with 100% accuracy in order to use gargantuan on round 3 instead of sniper or some similar card. It just strikes me as a very tight window. With both myth at the end, you chain stunning gaps after round 2 which means that there can be absolutely no fizzle and no lack of pips on your way to the top of round three. Of course, fire would always have meteor which can be gargantuaned without needing full power pip chance, and storm could go with gargantuan tempest instead of storm lord since lord's stun would be useless at this point as well... so I guess really its just the two myth that must have 100% accuracy and 100% power pip. How would you do that with gear only?
Excellent question and no, I have not found a way to get myth, storm, fire, or ice to 100% power pip percentage.
However, with the 21% ring and athame and even a pet with 5% pp chance, that give you 87%. No, that is not 100%, so, if and when those times do happen, there still is simplify and elucidate to save your hide. Or, what one might do, is use empower while 1st person stuns then 1st one empowers while 2 one earthquakes. There is always a way.
btw this answers a previous post, but i think the way that you sign up affects the order that you are in, but for this to truly work, you probably need 4 myths. also, just to let you know, this is a 4v4 strategy, not a 3v3, it goes like this (perfect scenario) 3v3 round 1: everyone blade except last myth, he stuns round 2:first myth earthquakes, second blades again, and fire/myth stuns, round 3:first myth blades, second myth earthquakes, fire stuns again now, the pips are as this first myth 4, second myth, 2, fire,4, thus, leaving a breech for them to attack and kill, seeing how they all have 8 or so pips
the only way to cover that breech is for 4v4 all myths
also, i have seen a helephant with pip boost, and another with pips o plenty, two different talents, both gives i think 5% pips, but wtill close but only 92% if they actually can get them both breeded into one helephant. also, in a 4v4, there is something that you can do, it will leave one a one turn opening though, but you know the balance global spell, it gives 45% pp%+ for 4 pips, thus solving that issue, and you may be able to get it as a version with only like 3 pips not 4
Excellent question and no, I have not found a way to get myth, storm, fire, or ice to 100% power pip percentage.
However, with the 21% ring and athame and even a pet with 5% pp chance, that give you 87%. No, that is not 100%, so, if and when those times do happen, there still is simplify and elucidate to save your hide. Or, what one might do, is use empower while 1st person stuns then 1st one empowers while 2 one earthquakes. There is always a way.
So check this out... I just ran numbers for those ice folks who have hatched a pet for both spell-defying and spell-proof. The ones that go max resistance to all (which I have at a possible 59%). Using blade and treasure blade (so as not to waste any pips) for both fire and storm and assuming the best possible damage for a gargantuan humungofrog and earthquake... without critical, these guys would (drum roll please)...... live. It could vary a bit, but using fairly typical damage values for fire and storm gear at level 58 (+65% storm and +46% fire) and assuming the command gear scenario I mentioned earlier for the myth, I have the total damage (over three rounds for the fire dragon) at 2973. Now, I'm not saying this is by any means likely, cause it isn't... but, its both possible and slightly amusing. ;)
Ok, one correction, the most spell resistance to all spells I have seen ice have is 37% from gear, 10% from spell proof, and 6% from spell defy. That makes 53% max.
Now, considering storm with critical gear will have 63 damage boost + 5% from pet, Fire at 46% +5%, with myth attacks, even ice can not survive without shields, even if Ice somehow did survive, saying that they had spritely cast from pet, barely saving them, unless the entire team is ice or even 2 are ice, both would have to have a pet with those stats and the stun team could not hit critical, it would then be a huge mismatch.
There are always possible scenarios that can occur, but a good team would be ready for anything and anything can happen in PVP.
Like today, my team was fighting 4 legendary fire wizards, they went first. on the second round they stunned us, then they casted 2 different smoke screens, one -40% and one -45%, they would have crushed us the next round, except that I somehow managed to get my StormLord off which stunned their whole team and allowed my team to remove the smoke screens. Then, since they were stunned, I casted tempest with storm, hit critical, and balance hit and finished them off.
It is always interesting to see the different types of strategies teams use.
Ok, one correction, the most spell resistance to all spells I have seen ice have is 37% from gear, 10% from spell proof, and 6% from spell defy. That makes 53% max.
I was just using figures from the wiki which had max spell-proof at 12% and max spell-defying at 5% for a total of 54%. However, I also neglected to mention the use of the heartsteel athame for that extra +5% resist all.
darthjt wrote:
Now, considering storm with critical gear will have 63 damage boost + 5% from pet, Fire at 46% +5%, with myth attacks, even ice can not survive without shields, even if Ice somehow did survive, saying that they had spritely cast from pet, barely saving them, unless the entire team is ice or even 2 are ice, both would have to have a pet with those stats and the stun team could not hit critical, it would then be a huge mismatch.
So, I had previously worked this out on a spreadsheet and was able to just plug in your new numbers. Whether or not I use a heartsteel athame (ie. resistance at 53% or 58%), they still live even after 3 rounds. I'm having a lot of fun with this rather outlandish scenario now. LOL.
darthjt wrote:
There are always possible scenarios that can occur, but a good team would be ready for anything and anything can happen in PVP.
Agreed. For fun, I'm going to call this ice team delta. They are all ice and configured the same (at least in terms of gear and pets having the talents spell-defying and spell-proof totaling +16% resist) giving them 58% resist to all, since they have decided to go with heartsteel athame and stellar signet. For an amulet, they each choose the the iceblade vial. They have all trained myth up to earthquake so that they can make 100% accurate earthquake treasure cards. Upon the first round stun, they go to their backup plan and do heavy discarding on round 2 and 3 to get everything ready just in case fire and storm don't go critical because they know that with only two myth, there could be a window at the bottom of round 3. Assuming they make the bottom of round 3, here is their counter attack:
Bottom of Round 3:
1st Ice: treasure precision on 3rd 2nd Ice: treasure empower 3rd Ice: treasure blinding light 4th Ice: iceblade on 4th
If Frost giant doesn't fizzle, it will do approximately 6960 damage. The first team won't have had time to shield due to their quick strike chain stun. Therefore, the most resist they could have to ice is 52% (assuming similar pets to the ice pets, but with accuracy) and this is still being generous because I used the higher damage values associated with crafted gear. Applying a 52% resist value (because heartsteel isn't an option for storm and fire if they want to strike on round 3), the effective damage would still be about 3340 (at least) to each player. If it fizzles, they're toast.
Obviously, this isn't a likely team... but it certainly is in the realm of possibility. LOL. Ok, that was fun, even on paper. Maybe I should do more 4v4 PvP.
Clearly, a 4 myth team all with commander gear as outlined in this thread can win every match unless conviction is cast first with a first turn advantage.
Wow that was fun to read. Interesting insights, however, I have to ask one more question. Say on round 3, if team 1 can't stun again, and they use storm lord, fire uses meteor strike, and one myth uses froggy, while other myth saves pips for earthquake again, what is to keep ice alive if they do quake and stun again. I mean, you do bring up excellent points and I can see your points, although, I am not sure why ice would train earthquake, especially if they all have snow angel and can eliminate shields like a paper in a shredder. Since all 4 are ice, 4 snow angels with 2 blades and gargantuan would be absolutely devastating! or, 4 frost giants with gargantuan for that matter.
It all makes very interesting scenarios, that's for sure!
Although, it would be very hard to find a full ice team with pets that have spell proof, spell defy, spritely, and pips or accuracy, but not impossible.
Wow that was fun to read. Interesting insights, however, I have to ask one more question. Say on round 3, if team 1 can't stun again, and they use storm lord, fire uses meteor strike, and one myth uses froggy, while other myth saves pips for earthquake again, what is to keep ice alive if they do quake and stun again.
Going into round 3 with the current scenario, there is no way to keep the ice team from taking control of the chain stun. After running quite a few scenarios, I only see one way to keep control after round 3 (without using elucidate) but there are some problems with the scenario. Before I elaborate on it, let me just say that if you are using elucidated versions of earthquake, you can keep control and strike on round 4 with the extra round of blading for the storm and fire taking you over the hump and killing the ice team. This also almost guarantees that you won't have a power pip issue for the fire and storm except on very rare occasions. The problem I see with it is that (unless you know a source I don't) elucidate is extremely rare and difficult to come across. Therefore, that strategy would not have much of a shelf life as you would burn through two elucidated quakes during every match.
So, to elaborate on how I would fix the problem, you would have to have storm placed after the two myth. Note that the storm doesn't have to be last, just after the two myth. I'll just say myth, fire, myth, storm because that is the last scenario I ran. In that scenario, it would play out like this:
Myth 1: treasure myth blade Fire: treasure fire blade Myth 2: gargantuan earthquake Storm: gargantuan storm lord
Round 4:
Myth 1: gargantuan humongofrog Fire: gargantuan fire dragon Myth 2: whatever (irrelevant due to 1 pip slot) Storm: whatever (irrelevant due to 1 pip slot)
If this goes off without a hitch, you're good. However, here is the fly in the ointment. 2 white pips for either the fire or the storm means that it will fail and ice will take over with the previously outlined counter attack (and if it is the fire that gets 2 white pips, that could buy the ice team more blades or another treasure precision ensuring defeat because of the extra round of pips starting out). You can ensure enough pips at the right time for the fire and storm using treasure empowers 2 rounds in a row (instead of blades) but then you haven't bladed and it isn't enough damage. It would be difficult to place odds on this, but two white pips for either the fire or the storm during 4 rounds seems like about 70/30 (in favor of success) to me.
In looking at this, it seems that if fire went first (fire, myth, myth, storm) that it could donate pips and keep control into round 5. However, it also means you wouldn't cast dragon and (I haven't run it yet, so I'm not positive) I'm guessing you would run out of pips for quaking (at the right time in the right order) at the end of round 5 where ice would take over. The moral of this story seems to be that you need at least 3 myth with commander gear and pets (but very common pets) to guarantee that the opposing team remains chain stunned while you build for a kill. In fact, with an all myth team configured like this, the only way to prevent a loss is first round advantage and the casting of conviction (stun block, even the new 2 shield one, can be over come with this team).
darthjt wrote:
I mean, you do bring up excellent points and I can see your points, although, I am not sure why ice would train earthquake, especially if they all have snow angel and can eliminate shields like a paper in a shredder. Since all 4 are ice, 4 snow angels with 2 blades and gargantuan would be absolutely devastating! or, 4 frost giants with gargantuan for that matter.
Most ice wouldn't train this way, but of course, most ice wouldn't get the special pets either. This truly is an unlikely scenario. It was just a possible answer to the equation at hand. ;) As mentioned above, a 4 myth team configured as talked about in this thread would only be stoppable from second position. Even in that scenario, it would be very difficult without at least one myth (and more likely two) configured with the proper gear with a chain stun style strategy.
darthjt wrote:
It all makes very interesting scenarios, that's for sure!
Although, it would be very hard to find a full ice team with pets that have spell proof, spell defy, spritely, and pips or accuracy, but not impossible.
All true. I can't imagine having enough patience myself to wait for that special pet. However, it probably won't stop me working on it here and there in the meantime. I might get lucky. LOL. If I ever manage to get one, it would be SUPER helpful to any of my other wizards. I'd love to have one with spell-defying, spell-proof, storm-proof, and fire-proof (or death-proof, I can't decide). Those are my thoughts anyway. If I missed answering any of your questions (or misunderstood any), just let me know. I'd be happy to try and clarify.
***Edited to adjust my odds and clarify the direction they lean in***
I agree with most of what you are saying. However, I must point this out!
Gtarhannon, you stated; " Going into round 3 with the current scenario, there is no way to keep the ice team from taking control of the chain stun."
Now, I do like your setup with storm going last, however, we both know that placement is random in PvP, so this can not be gauranteed!
So, knowing this, we have the setup for round 1 and round 2. We also know the variables considering power pips. We also know that empower can certainly help. Now, we also know how hard elucidate and simplify are to come by. But, smoke screen and treasure smoke screen are not hard to come by and will give the enemy a -40% and -45% to accuracy and only cost 1 pip, also allowing for the chance at another pip and buying myth another round to set for another earthquake!
There is always a way, IF, the team is ready and well thought out!
Also, I want you to consider this, 2 Meteor Strikes with Gargantuan is probably a lot better than 1 Fire Dragon with Gargantuan! And, even storm with only 1 pip, is dangerous! Especially with Gargantuan and 150 critical points, tempest can hit for1378 with a critical. And the myth that may not be going could blade one of the attacking players!
And you are right it does take a lot of patience with training pets and getting the right combination. My best Ice pet, is the polar cat, with pips, 10% spell proof, sure shot, and spritely! I do have a friend though that did get spell proof 10%, spell defy 6%, spritely, and sure shot! That is one awesome pet! But he spends a fortune on the game and on mega snacks!
Anyway, I love this discussion and all the possible ideas and scenarios that might happen, this is great! Thanks
I had to edit, I put in 10% spell defy when it was only 6% my bad.
Gtarhannon, you stated; " Going into round 3 with the current scenario, there is no way to keep the ice team from taking control of the chain stun."
Let me revise this to "having a chance to seize control of the chain stun". And to be clear, the scenario I mention is only if you have the two myth in position 3 and 4.
darthjt wrote:
Now, I do like your setup with storm going last, however, we both know that placement is random in PvP, so this can not be gauranteed!
So, knowing this, we have the setup for round 1 and round 2. We also know the variables considering power pips. We also know that empower can certainly help. Now, we also know how hard elucidate and simplify are to come by. But, smoke screen and treasure smoke screen are not hard to come by and will give the enemy a -40% and -45% to accuracy and only cost 1 pip, also allowing for the chance at another pip and buying myth another round to set for another earthquake!
Huh. I didn't think about the smoke screen and treasure smoke screen. Is it obvious I still haven't completely wrapped my head around the 4v4 scenarios? LOL. That does give them a very good chance of maintaining control of chain stun for that extra round of building. I like that you could have your fire and storm prepped with it just in case your myths end up in last position on the line.
darthjt wrote:
There is always a way, IF, the team is ready and well thought out!
I don't disagree. Survival against this team (myth, myth, fire, storm) with this strategy isn't very likley from second position. It was a farcical scenario to begin with because even with 2 rounds, ice as I described is the only group who could survive it, and that is only if fire or storm don't go critical. The one big advantage this ice group would have is surprise. No one would expect them to exist and therefore they would be likely to launch after only two rounds of blading (well, they would have unless they read this thread).
darthjt wrote:
Also, I want you to consider this, 2 Meteor Strikes with Gargantuan is probably a lot better than 1 Fire Dragon with Gargantuan! And, even storm with only 1 pip, is dangerous! Especially with Gargantuan and 150 critical points, tempest can hit for1378 with a critical. And the myth that may not be going could blade one of the attacking players!
On the attack round, a myth certainly could help blade if positioned correctly, but until reading this thread, I don't think they would have ever thought there would be a need. Therefore, because of the precision this strategy requires, I don't find it likely that they would have complicated their deck with elemental blades (either treasure or trained). Storm is, of course, always dangerous... particularly with a 30% chance of critical.
On the meteor strikes (and I think this applies to tempest as well)... Smaller rank spells fitted with gargantuan do end up with higher base damage per pip scores than gargantuan versions of larger spells. However, it doesn't always outweigh the benefits of the larger spell. In the case of 2 meteors vs. 1 fire dragon, the meteors benefit from two things. Speed of strike (to force the other team into a heal mode) and increasing the likelihood of a critical (more strikes = better chance that one goes critical).
However, in the same number of rounds as it would take for two meteors (blade, strike, blade strike), you can shield and cast two blades and that will bring your base damage up to a total of 2972 (assuming fire blade, treasure fire blade, and gear boost of 51%) or 3864 (in the case of blade, treasure blade, balance blade, strike and other assumptions remaining the same). This is vs. two meteors (with the same gear stats and treasure fire blades for each) for a base damage of 2516 (assuming highest meteor damage with the same gear assumption) or 2598 (with treasure blade, blade, strike, strike and other assumptions remaining the same). Fire dragon also gives you the luxury of using one white pip so potentially, it could be cast in less rounds than 2 meteors. This of course isn't to say that one way is better than the other. They have different strategic uses and meteor may well be a better option if you have crafted gear for high critical chance. Though, it is important to remember that more stacked blades plus critical is far more damage than 1 or 0 blades and a critical. For instance, fire dragon with just a treasure fire blade and critical is 4402. Add a fire blade and its 5944. Add a balance blade to that and its 7726.
darthjt wrote:
And you are right it does take a lot of patience with training pets and getting the right combination. My best Ice pet, is the polar cat, with pips, 10% spell proof, sure shot, and spritely! I do have a friend though that did get spell proof 10%, spell defy 6%, spritely, and sure shot! That is one awesome pet! But he spends a fortune on the game and on mega snacks!
Anyway, I love this discussion and all the possible ideas and scenarios that might happen, this is great! Thanks
I had to edit, I put in 10% spell defy when it was only 6% my bad.
I'm having a lot of fun with it too. :) Yeah, I'm both cheap (frugal?) and a little lazy. I do pet training from time to time, but I don't have the patience for it continuously. I have to confess, I'm a little surprised to see that it is actually possible to guarantee a chain stun victory from first position with 3 myth. I mean, I knew it was hard to escape a chain stun strategy... but I had no idea (until participating in this thread) that you could get 100% pip and 100% accuracy to actually guarantee it.
You have me thinking though... Using at least two fire and giving each player the smoking vial, could you effectively have a chain accuracy reduction strategy? I'll have to analyze that when I get a chance. :)
Ok. I don't know if this truly fits into this thread or not, because it isn't technically chain stunning, however, its the same idea... locking the other team out of playing. Check this out:
With a combined effect of -130% accuracy (unless we don't fully understand how KI applied accuracy modifier spells), the other team will be locked out and even factoring worst case scenario damage values (never critical, lowest meteor strike, etc) even "ice team delta" is toast by the end of round 6. Plus, and this is the best part, there is NO way you won't have enough pips with this strategy assuming the storm watches his pip count coming into round 3. It also doesn't matter which order the team is in. The only problem (other than the need for first turn advantage) is if we completely understand the targeting modifiers. Is it actually a net effect of -130%, or (like damage) -81.85%?
Further, this has a couple of advantages. First, its not expected (the surprise factor) and little can be done to counter it outside of a preemptive smokescreen or stun all spell, even if your team goes second. Second, it will wreak havoc with the other team because unlike stunning, their cards will just fizzle and go back into the pile making it difficult to keep what you need up for when you need it. Did I miss anything? Is this taking the conversation too far outside the topic?
Ok. I don't know if this truly fits into this thread or not, because it isn't technically chain stunning, however, its the same idea... locking the other team out of playing. Check this out:
With a combined effect of -130% accuracy (unless we don't fully understand how KI applied accuracy modifier spells), the other team will be locked out and even factoring worst case scenario damage values (never critical, lowest meteor strike, etc) even "ice team delta" is toast by the end of round 6. Plus, and this is the best part, there is NO way you won't have enough pips with this strategy assuming the storm watches his pip count coming into round 3. It also doesn't matter which order the team is in. The only problem (other than the need for first turn advantage) is if we completely understand the targeting modifiers. Is it actually a net effect of -130%, or (like damage) -81.85%?
Further, this has a couple of advantages. First, its not expected (the surprise factor) and little can be done to counter it outside of a preemptive smokescreen or stun all spell, even if your team goes second. Second, it will wreak havoc with the other team because unlike stunning, their cards will just fizzle and go back into the pile making it difficult to keep what you need up for when you need it. Did I miss anything? Is this taking the conversation too far outside the topic?
yea darthjt is right, it isnt straying too far from the topic (i just hope the freeloaders still arent getting any ideas)and really, this topic has turned into talking about some complex strategies a while back lol but yea, i would say chain fizzling is probably more effective then chain stunning, saying, one is building up for a major attack, and the screens are actually one pip, 100% and also, as you said, it can work either way, but there 2 factors, the chances of not fizzling, even if pushed below 0% its opposite of the topic "fizzle rate is broken" there is a miniscule chance that you wont fizz. and that it can ony go on for 8 rounds, untill the fire's regular smokescreen is out, but you probably could fix that simply by makeing them all fire and a storm, or even just all fire, and do a gar. dragon instead (it actually does more that lord!) so when one fire runs out, the next one takes his place! man that will be devastating
