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Deckathalon Deck use in PvP

AuthorMessage
Survivor
Oct 12, 2008
4
Hello forums! I hope everyone is doing okay in these troubling times, but I'm glad to see so many players either returning or being introduced to the game!

I post regarding a concern I have over the use of Deckathalon decks in PvP specifically. Frankly, I don't think they should be able to be used in anything besides Deckathalons, but they are especially problematic in PvP.

Even more specifically, I've witnessed many low levels in particular using the decks and having a great advantage over their opponents. Through conversations I've had with experienced low level duelists, they've told me they feel as though it's almost required to have these decks to be able to compete with those that already have them.


It doesn't make much sense that progress in an event like a Deckathalon should affect a completely different aspect of the game in PvP. Sure, one could claim gardening or other activities affect PvP, but it's much more indirectly, whereas the decks from Deckathalons are a direct advantage to those that have them.

I urge this is looked into, or else low level PvP may never truly be fair again.

Brandon

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
995
Agreed, those deckathalon decks are pretty good, and I don't think that the loss of the main deck is enough to make up for the stat gains especially at low levels. A level 10 Deckathalon deck gives 500 max health, a 10% school damage boost, a starting power pip, 150 defense vs the school opposing the damage boost, and 3! jewel slots, tear, square, and triangle! I would absolutely use that monster of a deck on my max level wizard if I had it, to say nothing of a Magus level wizard. On a Magus, that health bonus is 40% of their base health, the damage bonus is a second Sky Iron Hasta, and the pip is more than max level wizards get on their decks. It makes you wonder if KI thinks that new players on lower level wizards in PvP is a bug, not a feature. I would support making deckathalon decks "No PvP" so they can function normally in the deckathalon and not in the arena.

Moderator
"It doesn't make sense that progress in an event like a Deckathalon should affect a completely different aspect of the game in PvP."

Disagree. *Every* activity in the game should be useful to every *other* activity in the game. Play more, benefit more. It's already largely so. It makes exactly as much sense as grinding for Loremaster spells or Catacombs gear or any other activity.

"Never truly be fair again" is a bit dramatic. We're working on PvP now, to prepare for a 5th Age, and we'll definitely be assessing how the Deckathalon decks (and other gear) fits into the whole (new) picture.

Delver
Mar 09, 2018
260
Ratbeard on Mar 25, 2020 wrote:
"It doesn't make sense that progress in an event like a Deckathalon should affect a completely different aspect of the game in PvP."

Disagree. *Every* activity in the game should be useful to every *other* activity in the game. Play more, benefit more. It's already largely so. It makes exactly as much sense as grinding for Loremaster spells or Catacombs gear or any other activity.

"Never truly be fair again" is a bit dramatic. We're working on PvP now, to prepare for a 5th Age, and we'll definitely be assessing how the Deckathalon decks (and other gear) fits into the whole (new) picture.
I do hope you take a good look into the Deckathalon decks and their use in PvP. I recall talking to you in a Twitter thread about a month back about it, and from that thread it seemed like you understood that having 50+ flat resist to a certain school, 1.2k+ health, and 36 tc space as a level 5 wasn't good for the game. Hoping it's fine-tuned to either allow only the first few decks or just straight out remove them from PvP, or even something similar that keeps it balanced.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
Ratbeard on Mar 25, 2020 wrote:
"It doesn't make sense that progress in an event like a Deckathalon should affect a completely different aspect of the game in PvP."

Disagree. *Every* activity in the game should be useful to every *other* activity in the game. Play more, benefit more. It's already largely so. It makes exactly as much sense as grinding for Loremaster spells or Catacombs gear or any other activity.

"Never truly be fair again" is a bit dramatic. We're working on PvP now, to prepare for a 5th Age, and we'll definitely be assessing how the Deckathalon decks (and other gear) fits into the whole (new) picture.
I like how you said that you're going to assess how Deckathalon decks and other gear fit into the whole new picture. I have a question, however, if you're willing to answer:

Since the issue with Deckathalon decks currently is mostly due to low level players being able to hold Gargantuan/Colossal TC pre-enchanted hits (which makes using these decks as effective as enchanting from main deck), would a possible "No PvP" label be an option under discussion until more spellements are released and pre-enchanting Treasure Cards becomes unavailable for most spells?

I find that currently the decks are extremely overwhelming from levels 1-49 pretty much, and they are pretty much a necessity if you want to rank successfully today. While more spellements get released though, less pre-enchanted TC hits will become available to use with these decks, and so eventually those decks will be a trade-off between giving up main deck for stats, or using a main deck and not having on-par stats with players that use Deckathalon decks, which is a very interesting concept. Obviously that trade-off does not currently exist for rank 3+ spells, so that's why I'm wondering if a temporary "No PvP" label is under discussion until that becomes the trade-off eventually. Thanks.

Moderator
PvP King on Mar 25, 2020 wrote:
I like how you said that you're going to assess how Deckathalon decks and other gear fit into the whole new picture. I have a question, however, if you're willing to answer:

Since the issue with Deckathalon decks currently is mostly due to low level players being able to hold Gargantuan/Colossal TC pre-enchanted hits (which makes using these decks as effective as enchanting from main deck), would a possible "No PvP" label be an option under discussion until more spellements are released and pre-enchanting Treasure Cards becomes unavailable for most spells?

I find that currently the decks are extremely overwhelming from levels 1-49 pretty much, and they are pretty much a necessity if you want to rank successfully today. While more spellements get released though, less pre-enchanted TC hits will become available to use with these decks, and so eventually those decks will be a trade-off between giving up main deck for stats, or using a main deck and not having on-par stats with players that use Deckathalon decks, which is a very interesting concept. Obviously that trade-off does not currently exist for rank 3+ spells, so that's why I'm wondering if a temporary "No PvP" label is under discussion until that becomes the trade-off eventually. Thanks.
"Since the issue with Deckathalon decks currently is mostly due to low level players being able to hold Gargantuan/Colossal TC pre-enchanted hits"

Are you suggesting that players without Deckathalon decks are not able to use pre-enchanted G/C hits?

Because my understanding is that the main issue with the Decks is the bonus health, flat resist, and bonus pips.

No PvP for the Deckathalon decks is not currently under discussion.

What is currently under discussion is how TCs may change in both PvE and PvP (eg, level limiting the max rank of TCs). But this is a discussion we are having in the context of 5th Age PvP.

You hit the nail on the head, though: In a balanced and healthy environment, using the Deckathalon deck should be an analysis of trade-offs vs a vanilla deck.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
Ratbeard on Mar 26, 2020 wrote:
"Since the issue with Deckathalon decks currently is mostly due to low level players being able to hold Gargantuan/Colossal TC pre-enchanted hits"

Are you suggesting that players without Deckathalon decks are not able to use pre-enchanted G/C hits?

Because my understanding is that the main issue with the Decks is the bonus health, flat resist, and bonus pips.

No PvP for the Deckathalon decks is not currently under discussion.

What is currently under discussion is how TCs may change in both PvE and PvP (eg, level limiting the max rank of TCs). But this is a discussion we are having in the context of 5th Age PvP.

You hit the nail on the head, though: In a balanced and healthy environment, using the Deckathalon deck should be an analysis of trade-offs vs a vanilla deck.
"Are you suggesting that players without Deckathalon decks are not able to use pre-enchanted G/C hits?"
No. I was coming at it from a perspective that having Garg/Colossal enchanted sideboard hits was unbalanced in both decks, but especially in Deckathalon decks since the extra 500 health (and flat resist) gives them the ability to go glass-cannon without having to worry about their defences, while the extra 10% damage further forces that "high health glass cannon" feel to the strategy, and the higher pip start lets them get offensive from the get-go. I will further elaborate on what I mean below:
Because my understanding is that the main issue with the Decks is the bonus health, flat resist, and bonus pips.
Personally, I don't think the issue is so much the health and flat resist as it is the ability of using +300 base damage attacks. Once a Deckathalon deck has run out of TC, they've run out of fuel, and there's nothing the Deckathalon user can do; they won't be able to defend once they're out of cards. I obviously don't have the stats for any of this, or how these stats would even be gathered, but I can guarantee (from experience and just making sense of using the decks) that almost all users of those decks are glass cannons and matches with the Deckathalon deck user being the victor probably end quite rapidly for the most part. A Deckathalon deck user can not tank indefinitely since they won't have the cards to do so.
That is likely largely due to the fact that a base 770 damage Brimstone Revenant, 830-890 damage Headless Horseman, 745-805 (894-966 by technicality) damage Queen Calypso, etc. is not survivable by any means at low level PvP, especially when mixing in maycast Infallible and TC Supernova from Sunion plants to counter Fortify, fuelled by the extra offensive freedom that Deckathalon decks carry with a higher pip start to spam these cards from the get-go. Even when comparing TC Basilisk (1150 damage) vs a Colossal enchanted Ninja Pigs (940 damage) TC, I would take getting hit by the Basilisk any day before getting hit by Ninja Pigs, since Ninja Pigs can be followed up with another Ninja Pigs (total of 1880 base damage coming at you in 2 turns). The added damage per pip value that those Sunion dropped TC enchants is far more threatening and unbalanced than any high level TC is currently, from my standpoint.
"What is currently under discussion is how TCs may change in both PvE and PvP (eg, level limiting the max rank of TCs). But this is a discussion we are having in the contect of 5th Age PvP."
Okay, glad to hear that something like that is being discussed rather than a temporary "No PvP" label for the decks. In my opinion, once the issue of adding +250/300 damage to a low cost spammable spell is taken care of, the vast majority of the problems behind Deckathalon decks being overwhelming fades away.
"In a balanced and healthy environment, using the Deckathalon deck should be an analysis of trade-offs vs a vanilla deck."
I hope that you and the other KI staff meet this balanced trade-off eventually. When cheesing your opponent with a low pip 700-900 damage attack is taken out of the picture, a Deckathalon deck user will have to strategically design their deck and make sure that it is offensive enough to take out their opponent within one deck cycle and also have enough resources to survive long enough to do so, with the aid of their higher stats and pip start. When that is done, it is the responsibility of a non-Deckathalon user to build their build a well designed deck that is able to get around the larger health and flat resist buffer. Looking at the flat resist available, it might not be illogical for a low level player to say "Hey, maybe I should start using Prisms and carry 1-pip opposite school attacks or wand hits to break opposite school shields so that I can get around flat resist much more easily" or "Hey, since low level PvP gear gives universal stats, maybe I should start using the school I have a mastery amulet to as a second attack option". That is the kind of strategy and deck building I want to see in this game rather than the "nerf Deckathalon health/flat resist because I don't want to deal with it" approach that many people may come with.
I see that Spellements are already making pre-enchanting unavailable, so while cheesing your opponent with low pip G/C enchanted spells is currently a possibility; we at least know that it eventually won't be once more Spellements are released, and with high level TC out of the picture, I find in my opinion that the Deckathalon decks will be well balanced in a cost-analysis situation.
That may have been a longer explanation than you would have liked, but I hope I explained my point of view well.