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Balance referred to weak

AuthorMessage
A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1625
I hear many people say that Balance is the weakest school or is on the bottom of the line of ranks. I have to disagree with this. There is no school that's too weak. Balance has its advantages and disadvantages (pros & cons) and same as any other school. Some Balance wizards have amazing strategy to get around their cons (I've done this :-) ) And I know that 30% of Balance wizards have, and some go off complaining. Balance can hit as high as Storm, can be defensive as Ice. Don't refer to Balance being a "weak" school because I don't want my school to be so powerful that it's boring to PvP! This happened to Ice, and I never really play on my Ice wizard anymore. If you're going to say."Ha! See? We do need to weaken Balance's spells/We really do need a Balance Shield!", only the strategic players are good. Spamming a Judgement has no strategy to it, so you're just basically using any spell that can boost a Judgement and finding the attack. No school is weak, nor strong.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
Joujou11cool,

Well, I will say this, look at the Tourneys at Central, and tell me how many Balance level 60 or 70 have even got into the finals, in the past year?
Then tell me how many Balance have won a tourny in the past year?

All Wizards have about the same power overall, I don't think anyone will really disagree with this. It's the tools they have them let them move to the top, and Balance does not have all the tools it needs.
Because it does not have all the tools need, it has a hard time when the other player has a good deal of skill, especially if it's a fire or Myth.

Can a Balance become a Warlord in 1v1, the answer is yes.
Can a Storm become a Warlord in 1v1, the answer is yes. Just ask my brother, he knows how to do it. On the other hand, he's much better than me, as I would have little chance of getting a Storm to Warlord in 1v1.

The point is, a Balance will have a tougher time than a Death, Fire, Myth or Life getting there.
Not to slam any other wizard, but imo, when you see a Balance Warlord, you know the guy has most likely hard a hard time getting the title.

Joe.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2568
Lion359 wrote:
Joujou11cool,

Well, I will say this, look at the Tourneys at Central, and tell me how many Balance level 60 or 70 have even got into the finals, in the past year?
Then tell me how many Balance have won a tourny in the past year?


While I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your post (tools to defeat, etc), I do disagree about using Central tournaments has a metric for what is easier to PvP with or which school is better at PvP. There are so many variables that it can't be summed up like that.

First, we don't know if there are simply less Balance players that compete in Central tournaments.

Second, maybe the current pool of Balance players are just not as good at PvP on average with other better players that just happen to play other schools.

Third, success (or unsuccess) in Central tournaments does not automatically mirror the same situation in Ranked PvP. It is very possible that there are some Balance players that only do Ranked PvP and not Central tournaments and do quite well (but won't be reflected in any comparable stats). I assume there are on average more players that compete in Ranked PvP than any combined Central tournament.

Finally, some Central tournaments place certain restrictions on their matches and might factor in on school success, KI's system does not. Additionally, Central's tournaments tell you what school your facing prior to match up, which KI's system does not. That too could be a factor, since prepping against Balance might actually be more harmful to Balance success in Central tournaments.

Again, I'm not disagreeing that Balance might not have all the tools to compete effectively, just using Central rankings as a metric.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1625
Lion359 wrote:
Joujou11cool,

Well, I will say this, look at the Tourneys at Central, and tell me how many Balance level 60 or 70 have even got into the finals, in the past year?
Then tell me how many Balance have won a tourny in the past year?

All Wizards have about the same power overall, I don't think anyone will really disagree with this. It's the tools they have them let them move to the top, and Balance does not have all the tools it needs.
Because it does not have all the tools need, it has a hard time when the other player has a good deal of skill, especially if it's a fire or Myth.

Can a Balance become a Warlord in 1v1, the answer is yes.
Can a Storm become a Warlord in 1v1, the answer is yes. Just ask my brother, he knows how to do it. On the other hand, he's much better than me, as I would have little chance of getting a Storm to Warlord in 1v1.

The point is, a Balance will have a tougher time than a Death, Fire, Myth or Life getting there.
Not to slam any other wizard, but imo, when you see a Balance Warlord, you know the guy has most likely hard a hard time getting the title.

Joe.


I'm getting close to warlord fairly easily. I haven't got in any tournaments on my Balance wizard, but if I did, I'd be really good at it :D

Survivor
May 25, 2010
24
Balance is the best school in the game! I've defeated Transcendeds with my Balance! Storm/Fire/Ice/Life can't beat me! x3
Well in most cases.

GO BALANCE!

Survivor
May 19, 2009
26
I completely agree. Balance wizards have their advantages and disadvantages. For one, an advantage is that there's no balance shield. It makes this a lot easier for balance wizards. But since there's no balance shield, there's also no balance convert. I've been defeated too many times in waterworks because of the balance boss with 21,000 health. If there was a convert (to what school I don't know) it would make a balance wizard's life so much easier.
Balance is indeed named after "balance". It has healing spells, defense spells, and attacking spells. Balance can overpower storm (yes, even though you have high damage spells, storm), it can over-defense ice (tower shields aren't the best spell ever, remember that) and can over-heal life (if they get a critical at the right time). But it all depends on the strategy of the player. If the player has no strategy, i guarantee that the other school will win.
-Suri Sandbreeze, legendary sorcerer

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
I'm really glad you feel that way, OP, but I agree with Joe that a Balance Warlord probably had a much-harder time earning the title than his/her counterparts.

Storm and Death don't need a lot of pips to deal high damage; Ice is resistant to everything, and only 3 schools (Ice, Myth, and Storm) can stun. By the time a Balance wizard has enough pips to do anything of significance (Ra, Judge, chimera), the other person has either sapped them dry or fully healed, and it's back to square one.

My sorcerer tried PvP a few times, and kept getting killed by Death and Storm wizards who were 25 levels lower than me; needless to say, I got sick of it and gave up. It's not that we're weak- we're just not as well-rounded as the others.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1625
vonawesome1 wrote:
I'm really glad you feel that way, OP, but I agree with Joe that a Balance Warlord probably had a much-harder time earning the title than his/her counterparts.

Storm and Death don't need a lot of pips to deal high damage; Ice is resistant to everything, and only 3 schools (Ice, Myth, and Storm) can stun. By the time a Balance wizard has enough pips to do anything of significance (Ra, Judge, chimera), the other person has either sapped them dry or fully healed, and it's back to square one.

My sorcerer tried PvP a few times, and kept getting killed by Death and Storm wizards who were 25 levels lower than me; needless to say, I got sick of it and gave up. It's not that we're weak- we're just not as well-rounded as the others.


Try Spectral Blasts or Hydra. They're Balance's true source of power.

Mastermind
Jul 25, 2010
387
Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
joujou11cool wrote:
Try Spectral Blasts or Hydra. They're Balance's true source of power.


Those are both pretty awesome. But, unless you critical, they won't do any real damage- on its own, Spec hits 840 base at the highest (and that's with a significant gear boost), and any Life or Death wizard can get that back in one round quite easily. Hydra and Chimera are great for PvE. But because players can resist, they don't quite have the same effect.

Generally-speaking, I avoid attacking when the other person has a lot of pips- that usually means that a Rebirth/Scarecrow/something else really nasty is coming, so I wait until they run out (and have to start buffing again) and then hit them with a 10-pip Judge or something. Or I'll buff my AOE spells (to save up pips), so I can hit them with, say, 2 novas in a row before I go back to buffing again.

I've been on the receiving end of many, little gems around the arena. Here are a few:

"Oh, you totally had me, until I started healing." -level 40 theurgist (no kidding- Balance can't heal for that much, plus your accuracy is higher.)

"Balance wasn't made for PvP; I'm going to win, so you should just leave now." -level 38 necromancer (and give you the satisfaction? Yeah, right.).

"Clearly, you cheated, because a Balance wizard could never have beaten me on her own." - level 45 pyromancer (and this is after he LIED about lag, to get what he thought was the upper hand).

"[Judge] shouldn't be allowed in PvP because it's overpowered." - level 45 diviner (yeah, and your whole school isn't? Get real.)

-

This is my life as a sorceress, folks. Jealous?

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1625
vonawesome1 wrote:
joujou11cool wrote:
Try Spectral Blasts or Hydra. They're Balance's true source of power.


Those are both pretty awesome. But, unless you critical, they won't do any real damage- on its own, Spec hits 840 base at the highest (and that's with a significant gear boost), and any Life or Death wizard can get that back in one round quite easily. Hydra and Chimera are great for PvE. But because players can resist, they don't quite have the same effect.

Generally-speaking, I avoid attacking when the other person has a lot of pips- that usually means that a Rebirth/Scarecrow/something else really nasty is coming, so I wait until they run out (and have to start buffing again) and then hit them with a 10-pip Judge or something. Or I'll buff my AOE spells (to save up pips), so I can hit them with, say, 2 novas in a row before I go back to buffing again.

I've been on the receiving end of many, little gems around the arena. Here are a few:

"Oh, you totally had me, until I started healing." -level 40 theurgist (no kidding- Balance can't heal for that much, plus your accuracy is higher.)

"Balance wasn't made for PvP; I'm going to win, so you should just leave now." -level 38 necromancer (and give you the satisfaction? Yeah, right.).

"Clearly, you cheated, because a Balance wizard could never have beaten me on her own." - level 45 pyromancer (and this is after he LIED about lag, to get what he thought was the upper hand).

"[Judge] shouldn't be allowed in PvP because it's overpowered." - level 45 diviner (yeah, and your whole school isn't? Get real.)

-

This is my life as a sorceress, folks. Jealous?


Actually, your defition of "decent" damage boost was quite low, about 53%. Most Balance wizards hit 917 base, while some get their pets to let them hit higher (me), and that's why I think this is a good spell, so I'm now thinking that with your point that Spectral Blast is rather weak unless you have high damage boost. And remember, you can use Spectral Blast allot, 2 power pips, gain one next round.

Hero
Jun 08, 2009
793
joujou11cool wrote:
I hear many people say that Balance is the weakest school or is on the bottom of the line of ranks. I have to disagree with this. There is no school that's too weak. Balance has its advantages and disadvantages (pros & cons) and same as any other school. Some Balance wizards have amazing strategy to get around their cons (I've done this :-) ) And I know that 30% of Balance wizards have, and some go off complaining. Balance can hit as high as Storm, can be defensive as Ice. Don't refer to Balance being a "weak" school because I don't want my school to be so powerful that it's boring to PvP! This happened to Ice, and I never really play on my Ice wizard anymore. If you're going to say."Ha! See? We do need to weaken Balance's spells/We really do need a Balance Shield!", only the strategic players are good. Spamming a Judgement has no strategy to it, so you're just basically using any spell that can boost a Judgement and finding the attack. No school is weak, nor strong.
Well, you just explained it to yourself. Here's a nice example that I observed once. A Myth Warlord had engaged a Balance Knight in a Ranked Match. I was in the audience, trying to learn how other schools fought. The Myth had enough Pips to Medusa (This was before Zafaria) when the Balance used Judgement and completely crushed the guy. The Myth called the Balance a Judge noob, and ported. People call Balance weak for two reasons:
1. They don't realize the potential of Balance Wizards
2. They have lost a great many duels to Sorcerers and call them all weak as a kind of defense against humiliation.
It's true, what you said. All schools are as powerful as the others, simply distributed differently, like 2 1/2 and 3/2.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
Kingurz wrote "I do disagree about using Central tournaments has a metric for what is easier to PvP with or which school is better at PvP. There are so many variables that it can't be summed up like that. "

I know that many people disagree with that idea, but this is why I do feel that it has validity.
All of the top players that do well in the Central Tourneys are Warlord plus in Ranked PvP. Each and every match that I have watched, the players are above 1200.
In most people's opinion, that know the top players at central, I think they will all agree, they are some of the most skilled players in the game.
How skilled, well when the top Tourney players play against KI's own, guess who has come out the winner almost every time, Central.

Some of these players have gone up to around 1700 in Ranked, not too bad.
These guys live, eat, and sleep PVP, and they even write Manuals on it, for people like me.
So, I guess the bottom line is, these guys are very good at PvP, no question about it. They have been on the cutting edge with new ideas, that have really helped PvP progress in a number of way.
If the Best Player takes the Best Designed wizard, and can't win with it, I think that puts the Wizards in a Ranking.

Everyone knows that it's much easier to win with a Fire, Myth or Ice in 1v1. Many put Death next in the lineup, or some look at Balance and Death as being even, but that was at the time of Wintertusk.
Now that Zafaria has been released and Balance got no after effect, I would have to put Death on the Fourth peg.
Why, beause the Death Monster has an after effect, which saves them a round, and puts a minus 25 on you.
Life has two dispels, saving two rounds and adding in two life dispels on the level 68.
Having said all that, Balance is still a great and a real danger in the Ring.
Luck always plays in the game, and they always have a chance.
The problems is, when a Balance goes in against a skilled and well designed Fire, Myth, or Ice, the odds are they will lose.

Joe.
Ice, Balance, Death, Storm, Myth all Level 70 (life at level 25).
So I do play the game, see you in PvP.

Survivor
Dec 20, 2009
25
vonawesome1 wrote:
I'm really glad you feel that way, OP, but I agree with Joe that a Balance Warlord probably had a much-harder time earning the title than his/her counterparts.

Storm and Death don't need a lot of pips to deal high damage; Ice is resistant to everything, and only 3 schools (Ice, Myth, and Storm) can stun. By the time a Balance wizard has enough pips to do anything of significance (Ra, Judge, chimera), the other person has either sapped them dry or fully healed, and it's back to square one.

My sorcerer tried PvP a few times, and kept getting killed by Death and Storm wizards who were 25 levels lower than me; needless to say, I got sick of it and gave up. It's not that we're weak- we're just not as well-rounded as the others.
I am a level70socerer and I am pretty good inpvp when I was lv33 I beat level 50's level cap at time

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2568
Lion359 wrote:
All of the top players that do well in the Central Tourneys are Warlord plus in Ranked PvP. Each and every match that I have watched, the players are above 1200.
In most people's opinion, that know the top players at central, I think they will all agree, they are some of the most skilled players in the game.
How skilled, well when the top Tourney players play against KI's own, guess who has come out the winner almost every time, Central.


I don't disagree with you about the skill of those tourney players. If they win Central tournaments, they are certainly a top ranker in KI PvP, no doubt. My point is the current crop of Central tourney winners may just have not chosen to play Balance at all. So while it appears to be low in the wins column, it is actually because the better skilled players (of the best players in Wizard101) are simply a school that is not Balance. Unless those top players are competing with multiple wizards, they will end up near the top with that same school every time.

Factors that change the school standings:

1.) Those top players just stop competing as they move on to other games or real-life commitments. This is sometimes why the school rankings adjust seasonally, but many people automatically assume it is due to a new spell, gear or something changed recently.

2.) New (and better) talent comes in the tournament with a different school that has traditionally not fared as well in the standings. Or now other schools move up in the rankings due to reason #1.

3.) A new spell is introduced that isn't necessarily over or under powered, but brings a new strategy that the previous top school hasn't figured out how to handle effectively.

Now because we can't see the total stats of the KI PvP arena, nor does KI host their own tournaments, we only have the Central tournaments to use as a distinguisher. My point is that Balance can and likely does very well in KI PvP (and might actually place higher on school charts), but using the Central metric only tells us the fact that Balance currently does not do very well in Central tournaments, we have to assume for the rest of PvP.

It would be interesting if we could compare the school rankings to see if they mirror each other.

Always a good discussion with you Joe.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
watsupdog111 wrote:
if balance was weak people wouldn't ask for a balance shield


Anyone who gets hit with a full-pip Judge is going to cry over it and spam the boards asking for shields.

That's our only spell with the potential to do any significant damage (without buffs or crit) and, since it happens to be "unblockable", they're all going to whine about it. Every time the other schools gripe about Judge, all I can think of is:

1. How I'd love to go off on the Myth school for nixing my entire strategy with that silly Earthquake.

2. How I'd love to hug those same Myth wizards for getting rid of the annoying traps they spammed at me, and

3. How I'd love to rip into people who call Balance overpowered, especially the diviners. I have this to say to you: Pot. Kettle. Black.

-

Like I said, I haven't done PvP since I was level 50 and got annoyed with everyone calling me a Judge Noob. I guess it wouldn't kill me to try again, since I'm used to it now.

L.S.
Transcended Sorceress

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1625
vonawesome1 wrote:
watsupdog111 wrote:
if balance was weak people wouldn't ask for a balance shield


Anyone who gets hit with a full-pip Judge is going to cry over it and spam the boards asking for shields.

That's our only spell with the potential to do any significant damage (without buffs or crit) and, since it happens to be "unblockable", they're all going to whine about it. Every time the other schools gripe about Judge, all I can think of is:

1. How I'd love to go off on the Myth school for nixing my entire strategy with that silly Earthquake.

2. How I'd love to hug those same Myth wizards for getting rid of the annoying traps they spammed at me, and

3. How I'd love to rip into people who call Balance overpowered, especially the diviners. I have this to say to you: Pot. Kettle. Black.

-

Like I said, I haven't done PvP since I was level 50 and got annoyed with everyone calling me a Judge Noob. I guess it wouldn't kill me to try again, since I'm used to it now.

L.S.
Transcended Sorceress


No such thing as a Judge Noob, and I'm sure you knew that a while ago :) . Judgement has its own weaknesses, like any other spell. Judgement leaves you defenseless, and offenseless.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
joujou11cool wrote:
No such thing as a Judge Noob, and I'm sure you knew that a while ago :) . Judgement has its own weaknesses, like any other spell. Judgement leaves you defenseless, and offenseless.


Actually, I didn't- as of now, I've been playing for less than a year and it used to annoy me to no end when people would toss that term around.

As you mentioned, it does leave you in a bit of an offensive/defensive bind- for that reason, I won't cast it unless I have shields/heals/buffs in my current hand, while keeping my Justice Slashes close by, just in case someone tries to throw up a tower shield.

-

It doesn't bother me as much now, but every time I hear a Storm wizard go off about how we're overpowered, I feel obligated to remind them that their Insane Bolt can do more damage than 3 transcended sorcerers have health. You want overpowered? Go find an Ice wizard to bother, since they'll just tower you to death anyway. :P

Survivor
Aug 08, 2009
2
I barely do VIP but when I was level 31 I beated a level 42 fire wizard, winning in PVP mainly relies on level, strategy, and luck. Fizzleing is a big factor. And alos drawing good cards are to, and powerpips.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
I don't disagree with you about the skill of those tourney players. If they win Central tournaments, they are certainly a top ranker in KI PvP, no doubt. My point is the current crop of Central tourney winners may just have not chosen to play Balance at all. So while it appears to be low in the wins column, it is actually because the better skilled players (of the best players in Wizard101) are simply a school that is not Balance. Unless those top players are competing with multiple wizards, they will end up near the top with that same school every time.

reply: I have read many of the discussion, and most think that Judgement had it's hayday and everyone knows how to defend against it now.
Two different weakness and two towers, and a max pips Judge is down and out. Many different ways to remove the Feints, if they go this route.
Plus, Balance just does not have the tools to make life easy when in 1v1.
Not to mention, if you look at the number of players that find Fire and Myth easy to Warlord on, that should be a real key.
-------------------------------------

Factors that change the school standings:

1.) Those top players just stop competing as they move on to other games or real-life commitments. This is sometimes why the school rankings adjust seasonally, but many people automatically assume it is due to a new spell, gear or something changed recently.

reply, Talk to Eric the Theif, one of the biggest Balance Warlards we had.
Even Eric decided to give up Balance after Zarfaria, and finally just gave up the game. Why did Digby Strongheart drop his Ice, and move to a Fire.
Why have so many dropped their death and storm and moved to Fire and Myth. Those two wizards have all the tools to tear the other player apart, it's that simple.
---------------------------------

2.) New (and better) talent comes in the tournament with a different school that has traditionally not fared as well in the standings. Or now other schools move up in the rankings due to reason #1.

reply, New and better talent has come to the Toruney's with a unique setup, but it wasn't Balance. Arc Warrior is an Ice, and he has done very well, but then again, Ice is in the top three, balance is not.
---------------------------------

3.) A new spell is introduced that isn't necessarily over or under powered, but brings a new strategy that the previous top school hasn't figured out how to handle effectively.

reply, No question about it, Life is doing very very well, Ice got a huge boost in the 1v1 department, Death finally got a single big hit with an after effect (to bad it doesn't have more tools), Myth got a single hit over rounds (just an awesome spell for an awesome school), Fire (a complete schoo that has all the tools it needs plus real hitting power), Storm got a spells but it was useless for 1v1, but Balance got a fairly good spell with no affter effect at all.
So Balance and Storm really didn't improve in any noticable way, in 1v1.
------------------------------

Now because we can't see the total stats of the KI PvP arena, nor does KI host their own tournaments, we only have the Central tournaments to use as a distinguisher. My point is that Balance can and likely does very well in KI PvP (and might actually place higher on school charts), but using the Central metric only tells us the fact that Balance currently does not do very well in Central tournaments, we have to assume for the rest of PvP.

Reply, True, but if you look at the number of Balance that are warlord on any given night, I believe that you will agree, Balance has a much harder time than Fire, Myth, Ice or Life. Just list the fights going on, and you will see that 1 in 20 wizards are Balance. I have not seen any Balance up above 1200, but I have seen plenty of Fire, Myth, Life and Ice up above this level.
Add this in to the fact that no one uses Balance in the Toruneys and if they do they don't do very well, is another key point.
Another indication is the Manuals that are being written, Ice, Myth, Fire, and Life Manuals have all been updated or created since Zafaria.
I have not seen one new Balacne or Death Manual at all, and again this is one of the many keys that I see pointing to how hard it is to use Balance in 1v1.
------------------------------------------

It would be interesting if we could compare the school rankings to see if they mirror each other.

Always a good discussion with you Joe.

reply: I believe that KI use to list these at one time, and for some reason stopped. I agree, it would be very interesting to see the listed for each
level.
We do have indicators, in each new release, just how much they help certain schools and nerf others.....

Always nice to have a discussion with someone that can open my
eyes to different points of view, and not pound me into the ground... : )

Thanks,
Joe.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1625
Lion359 wrote:
I don't disagree with you about the skill of those tourney players. If they win Central tournaments, they are certainly a top ranker in KI PvP, no doubt. My point is the current crop of Central tourney winners may just have not chosen to play Balance at all. So while it appears to be low in the wins column, it is actually because the better skilled players (of the best players in Wizard101) are simply a school that is not Balance. Unless those top players are competing with multiple wizards, they will end up near the top with that same school every time.

reply: I have read many of the discussion, and most think that Judgement had it's hayday and everyone knows how to defend against it now.
Two different weakness and two towers, and a max pips Judge is down and out. Many different ways to remove the Feints, if they go this route.
Plus, Balance just does not have the tools to make life easy when in 1v1.
Not to mention, if you look at the number of players that find Fire and Myth easy to Warlord on, that should be a real key.
-------------------------------------

Factors that change the school standings:

1.) Those top players just stop competing as they move on to other games or real-life commitments. This is sometimes why the school rankings adjust seasonally, but many people automatically assume it is due to a new spell, gear or something changed recently.

reply, Talk to Eric the Theif, one of the biggest Balance Warlards we had.
Even Eric decided to give up Balance after Zarfaria, and finally just gave up the game. Why did Digby Strongheart drop his Ice, and move to a Fire.
Why have so many dropped their death and storm and moved to Fire and Myth. Those two wizards have all the tools to tear the other player apart, it's that simple.
---------------------------------

2.) New (and better) talent comes in the tournament with a different school that has traditionally not fared as well in the standings. Or now other schools move up in the rankings due to reason #1.

reply, New and better talent has come to the Toruney's with a unique setup, but it wasn't Balance. Arc Warrior is an Ice, and he has done very well, but then again, Ice is in the top three, balance is not.
---------------------------------

3.) A new spell is introduced that isn't necessarily over or under powered, but brings a new strategy that the previous top school hasn't figured out how to handle effectively.

reply, No question about it, Life is doing very very well, Ice got a huge boost in the 1v1 department, Death finally got a single big hit with an after effect (to bad it doesn't have more tools), Myth got a single hit over rounds (just an awesome spell for an awesome school), Fire (a complete schoo that has all the tools it needs plus real hitting power), Storm got a spells but it was useless for 1v1, but Balance got a fairly good spell with no affter effect at all.
So Balance and Storm really didn't improve in any noticable way, in 1v1.
------------------------------

Now because we can't see the total stats of the KI PvP arena, nor does KI host their own tournaments, we only have the Central tournaments to use as a distinguisher. My point is that Balance can and likely does very well in KI PvP (and might actually place higher on school charts), but using the Central metric only tells us the fact that Balance currently does not do very well in Central tournaments, we have to assume for the rest of PvP.

Reply, True, but if you look at the number of Balance that are warlord on any given night, I believe that you will agree, Balance has a much harder time than Fire, Myth, Ice or Life. Just list the fights going on, and you will see that 1 in 20 wizards are Balance. I have not seen any Balance up above 1200, but I have seen plenty of Fire, Myth, Life and Ice up above this level.
Add this in to the fact that no one uses Balance in the Toruneys and if they do they don't do very well, is another key point.
Another indication is the Manuals that are being written, Ice, Myth, Fire, and Life Manuals have all been updated or created since Zafaria.
I have not seen one new Balacne or Death Manual at all, and again this is one of the many keys that I see pointing to how hard it is to use Balance in 1v1.
------------------------------------------

It would be interesting if we could compare the school rankings to see if they mirror each other.

Always a good discussion with you Joe. ;)


reply: I believe that KI use to list these at one time, and for some reason stopped. I agree, it would be very interesting to see the listed for each
level.
We do have indicators, in each new release, just how much they help certain schools and nerf others.....

Always nice to have a discussion with someone that can open my
eyes to different points of view, and not pound me into the ground... : )

Thanks,
Joe. </div>
</blockquote>

I agree with you on most facts, except for one. The rankings on each school. Some better players prefer to use different schools, and I agree with that. But even after your statement, why say there's still a ranking?

I agree that it is hard to use a Balance for some wizards, and then I helped my Magus friend with his deck set-up, and he shot up to commander! Deck set-up is the most important thing for Balance I believe, and also the fact that Balance's pro/con is fogged up. The real pro/con is that Balance can strike hard and fast until they're fully blocked, that's why KI gave up Spectral Blast, to use it effectively in PvP. Some people don't understand that, and then they just stick with the high pip spells, which is the biggest mistake you could make as a Balance wizard.

Balance is different from all the other schools, because how good you are depends on what type of strategy you use. Balance somewhat forces every Balance wizard to stick to a similiar strategy and that's how you're very well, because I've noticed that with many other Balance warlords. Balance isn't weak, it's just hard to control and understand.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
joujou11cool wrote:
Lion359 wrote:
I have read many of the discussion, and most think that Judgement had it's hayday and everyone knows how to defend against it now.
Two different weakness and two towers, and a max pips Judge is down and out. Many different ways to remove the Feints, if they go this route.
Plus, Balance just does not have the tools to make life easy when in 1v1.
Not to mention, if you look at the number of players that find Fire and Myth easy to Warlord on, that should be a real key.
-------------------------------------

Factors that change the school standings:

1.) Those top players just stop competing as they move on to other games or real-life commitments. This is sometimes why the school rankings adjust seasonally, but many people automatically assume it is due to a new spell, gear or something changed recently.

reply, Talk to Eric the Theif, one of the biggest Balance Warlards we had.
Even Eric decided to give up Balance after Zarfaria, and finally just gave up the game. Why did Digby Strongheart drop his Ice, and move to a Fire.
Why have so many dropped their death and storm and moved to Fire and Myth. Those two wizards have all the tools to tear the other player apart, it's that simple.
---------------------------------

2.) New (and better) talent comes in the tournament with a different school that has traditionally not fared as well in the standings. Or now other schools move up in the rankings due to reason #1.

reply, New and better talent has come to the Toruney's with a unique setup, but it wasn't Balance. Arc Warrior is an Ice, and he has done very well, but then again, Ice is in the top three, balance is not.
---------------------------------

3.) A new spell is introduced that isn't necessarily over or under powered, but brings a new strategy that the previous top school hasn't figured out how to handle effectively.

reply, No question about it, Life is doing very very well, Ice got a huge boost in the 1v1 department, Death finally got a single big hit with an after effect (to bad it doesn't have more tools), Myth got a single hit over rounds (just an awesome spell for an awesome school), Fire (a complete schoo that has all the tools it needs plus real hitting power), Storm got a spells but it was useless for 1v1, but Balance got a fairly good spell with no affter effect at all.
So Balance and Storm really didn't improve in any noticable way, in 1v1.
------------------------------

Now because we can't see the total stats of the KI PvP arena, nor does KI host their own tournaments, we only have the Central tournaments to use as a distinguisher. My point is that Balance can and likely does very well in KI PvP (and might actually place higher on school charts), but using the Central metric only tells us the fact that Balance currently does not do very well in Central tournaments, we have to assume for the rest of PvP.

Reply, True, but if you look at the number of Balance that are warlord on any given night, I believe that you will agree, Balance has a much harder time than Fire, Myth, Ice or Life. Just list the fights going on, and you will see that 1 in 20 wizards are Balance. I have not seen any Balance up above 1200, but I have seen plenty of Fire, Myth, Life and Ice up above this level.
Add this in to the fact that no one uses Balance in the Toruneys and if they do they don't do very well, is another key point.
Another indication is the Manuals that are being written, Ice, Myth, Fire, and Life Manuals have all been updated or created since Zafaria.
I have not seen one new Balacne or Death Manual at all, and again this is one of the many keys that I see pointing to how hard it is to use Balance in 1v1.


I agree with you on most facts, except for one. The rankings on each school. Some better players prefer to use different schools, and I agree with that. But even after your statement, why say there's still a ranking?

I agree that it is hard to use a Balance for some wizards, and then I helped my Magus friend with his deck set-up, and he shot up to commander! Deck set-up is the most important thing for Balance I believe, and also the fact that Balance's pro/con is fogged up. The real pro/con is that Balance can strike hard and fast until they're fully blocked, that's why KI gave up Spectral Blast, to use it effectively in PvP. Some people don't understand that, and then they just stick with the high pip spells, which is the biggest mistake you could make as a Balance wizard.

Balance is different from all the other schools, because how good you are depends on what type of strategy you use. Balance somewhat forces every Balance wizard to stick to a similiar strategy and that's how you're very well, because I've noticed that with many other Balance warlords. Balance isn't weak, it's just hard to control and understand.


Well, I must say, a very interesting conversation going on here. Mind if I add my 2 cents?

JouJou11Cool, you are really catching on fast. The power of Balance, the quick attacks, the nearly 100% ppc or higher. Does not take much for Balance to hit hard and fast and be so difficult to defend against.

As for Joe, whom keeps going back to the Central Tournaments as a deciding factor on how well Balance is doing.

Think about this Joe. Is it fair to have a PvP Tournament and tell one school that they have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs, tell another school they can fight with both hands, but have to pull their punches, and then another school, no holds barred rules for you, do anything and everything you can to win.

Think about the rules they set, who do they benefit? Do they benefit Ice? Nope, they sure don't. Do they Benefit Balance, no, they sure don't. Who do the rules benefit? Storm? A little yes, but they benefit Fire and Myth the most. Is this not a fact? Can you not simply look and see how this factors in?

Also, think about this, in a tournament, you know who you will face. You know if you are facing life, or death, or balance, or fire. Is this not correct?
So, here is another question for you. Of course you carry shields for that school, that much is a given, but do you not use different strategies for those shields with each school...

I mean, think about it. You know fire can use fire elf at any given time. So you watch and use your best fire shields at the proper moments.

Ice, they limit the amount of resistance Ice can have. Which puts even more limits on their critical, unless they have bought crown items.

When you start putting rules up, you are making the fights biased. Some will say, oh that's fair, as in every aspect of the game and pvp. While others will say, that's not fair. Also every aspect of the game and pvp.

Now, if shatter was allowed in PvP, do you think there would be more Balance Tournament winners? Would it still be fire or myth? Would it be more evened out? What if Ice were allowed to use it's full and maximum resistance? Would Ice always win then?

Champion
Apr 18, 2010
407
joujou11cool wrote:


I'm getting close to warlord fairly easily. I haven't got in any tournaments on my Balance wizard, but if I did, I'd be really good at it :-D


To the winners of central tournaments, the title "warlord" simply means I'm not a noob. Getting to Warlord is a cake walk compared to winning a tournament.

Regarding the OP. Balance is one of the weakest schools in pvp (along with a few others.) As Lion said, the problem with balance is its lack of tools. For a school to succeed in pvp, they need these things: Damage bubble, School Blade, Shields, Shield Clearing spell(s). These all I can think of right now, but you can already see a huge disadvantage for a few schools. Balance has no damage bubble, weak blades (at least they have blades), and no good shield clearing spell (hydra and chimera are only good for tower shields, nothing else.) Giving balance a 2 pip hydra, a 2 pip chimera, and maybe a permanent blade (suedo-bubble) might bring it on par with a top school like myth. If we filled in the gaps of every school to be equal to the schools without glaring ones, then pvp might be a little nicer.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1625
Solstice64 wrote:
joujou11cool wrote:


I'm getting close to warlord fairly easily. I haven't got in any tournaments on my Balance wizard, but if I did, I'd be really good at it :-D


To the winners of central tournaments, the title "warlord" simply means I'm not a noob. Getting to Warlord is a cake walk compared to winning a tournament.

Regarding the OP. Balance is one of the weakest schools in pvp (along with a few others.) As Lion said, the problem with balance is its lack of tools. For a school to succeed in pvp, they need these things: Damage bubble, School Blade, Shields, Shield Clearing spell(s). These all I can think of right now, but you can already see a huge disadvantage for a few schools. Balance has no damage bubble, weak blades (at least they have blades), and no good shield clearing spell (hydra and chimera are only good for tower shields, nothing else.) Giving balance a 2 pip hydra, a 2 pip chimera, and maybe a permanent blade (suedo-bubble) might bring it on par with a top school like myth. If we filled in the gaps of every school to be equal to the schools without glaring ones, then pvp might be a little nicer.


Wait, what? 2 pip Hydra? 2 pip Chimera? I'm Balance, and you most likely know that. Would you like getting dealt with almost 2000 damage every round with Chimera? You're practically saying that Balance is pure weak to reduce a spell by 7 pips! I appreciate you for trying to boost Balance, but I don't need boost ups to win. I'm my own person, perfectly fit with Balance, use it well, defend myself well. I always use vengeance before I use Availing Hands, a basic strategy. Even with the most basic tools, Balance can do big damage/defend big/heal 2000!

It's really easy to see that most Balance wizards are weak if they complained that Chimera is too weak. I don't think that 930+81% is weak. There are many biased results for each school. The weak and the strong have their own saying. I don't think that Balance needs a new bubble just now. KI has more plans for us.

Too many people complain about Balance's weak blades. People say my pet is noobish, until they look at its stats! A Talented Piggle, yes, a level 70 wizard using a Talented Piggle! It gives the Dragonblade spell, +30%. That's an amazing blade! Plus with Balance's Elemental Blade, Spirit Blade, Hex, Bladestorm, Spirit Trap, Elemental Trap. We can already attack fast from any corner of the spiral.

Balance is the most balanced school in existence, not because it takes away things from all schools. But because of how it's made and how only the more strategic minds can use a certain school like that.

Do you remember our old Balance teacher? Artur Wetherfield (Pardon me if I got your name wrong, it's been forever!) In the Ravenwood tutorial, heck I remember it. Last I heard it was 2 years! "Balance is an advanced school, and hardest to master."

Those words from Artur Wetherfield, I kept in mind through the entire game. I kept it still in my mind. At first, Balance was a singe! Until you got Judgement. Which to use, Spectral Blast, or Judgement? Um....

That's Balance's question! Well, I was a journeyman before Celestia came out. And I was already beating Grandmasters! I always just did pvp on and on and on. The same thing through my head:
Advanced school, hardest to master.

I'm not sure, but I think one of the reasons why I'm so good at Balance is because I was a low level for a super long time, and then I understood my strategy more and more! I was a pvp fan and it was the best to me!

So, if people think that a 2 pip Hydra/Chimera would solve things, or boosting up Balance's blades, or they need a new bubble, or a shield clearing spell. Get this one sentence through:

Balance is the most advanced school and hardest to master.
Hardest to master. That's why I know that many Balance wizards aren't as good as some. It's the hardest school to master, and when mastered, it's pretty dangerous.

Champion
Apr 18, 2010
407
joujou11cool wrote:

Wait, what? 2 pip Hydra? 2 pip Chimera? I'm Balance, and you most likely know that. Would you like getting dealt with almost 2000 damage every round with Chimera? You're practically saying that Balance is pure weak to reduce a spell by 7 pips! I appreciate you for trying to boost Balance, but I don't need boost ups to win. I'm my own person, perfectly fit with Balance, use it well, defend myself well. I always use vengeance before I use Availing Hands, a basic strategy. Even with the most basic tools, Balance can do big damage/defend big/heal 2000!


A 2 pip hydra would deal 60 damage a head, not 190. Upon further contemplation, I think a 3 pip one would be a little more balanced (90 damage a head.) It would be a whole separate spell, maybe from a side world or something.

It's really easy to see that most Balance wizards are weak if they complained that Chimera is too weak. I don't think that 930+81% is weak. There are many biased results for each school. The weak and the strong have their own saying. I don't think that Balance needs a new bubble just now. KI has more plans for us.

The problem with chimera isn't that it's weak, it's that there is no way to clear the spirit shields making it weak.

Shatter to clear the shields proves that balance relies on out of school spells, whereas schools like myth and fire don't. This fact proves that balance is weaker then those schools, as they have all the tools they need in school, balance doesn't.

Too many people complain about Balance's weak blades. People say my pet is noobish, until they look at its stats! A Talented Piggle, yes, a level 70 wizard using a Talented Piggle! It gives the Dragonblade spell, +30%. That's an amazing blade! Plus with Balance's Elemental Blade, Spirit Blade, Hex, Bladestorm, Spirit Trap, Elemental Trap. We can already attack fast from any corner of the spiral.

Balance blades aren't weak becuase of their %s, they are weak becuase if you need to clear shields, all your blades go with it.

Balance is the most balanced school in existence, not because it takes away things from all schools. But because of how it's made and how only the more strategic minds can use a certain school like that.

I do not follow you logic, how does balance being a strategic school make it balanced? You can have UP and OP strategic schools.

Do you remember our old Balance teacher? Artur Wetherfield (Pardon me if I got your name wrong, it's been forever!) In the Ravenwood tutorial, heck I remember it. Last I heard it was 2 years! "Balance is an advanced school, and hardest to master."

I see your argument now. You want balance to remain a hard to master but advanced school. What you don't see is that right now, balance is only a school of gimmicks (like triple feint triple blade shatter judgement.) The days when balance could get to warlord from fast spectral blasts and tricky hydras is over.

What you don't know is my argument, I am trying to make the way balance again what it once was, a school that used its many and unique aspects to pull of a victory, not a school that took advantage of having no shield (and that now being its only advantage.)

Those words from Artur Wetherfield, I kept in mind through the entire game. I kept it still in my mind. At first, Balance was a singe! Until you got Judgement. Which to use, Spectral Blast, or Judgement? Um....

That's Balance's question! Well, I was a journeyman before Celestia came out. And I was already beating Grandmasters! I always just did pvp on and on and on. The same thing through my head:
Advanced school, hardest to master.


Spectral blast and judgement are balances best tools, nowadays though, spectral blast is to easily thwarted by shields.

I'm not sure, but I think one of the reasons why I'm so good at Balance is because I was a low level for a super long time, and then I understood my strategy more and more! I was a pvp fan and it was the best to me!

Don't be that arrogant if you have even yet to get a warlord title, which by itself, is only a baby step, not a finale achievement. Say that to me when you've won a tournament without max judging, and I'll believe you.

So, if people think that a 2 pip Hydra/Chimera would solve things, or boosting up Balance's blades, or they need a new bubble, or a shield clearing spell. Get this one sentence through:

Balance is the most advanced school and hardest to master.
Hardest to master. That's why I know that many Balance wizards aren't as good as some. It's the hardest school to master, and when mastered, it's pretty dangerous.


My previous statement already counters this, so just go and read it again if you can't remember.

I think I am going to state this again though, I am not trying to make balance a powerful and easy to use school, I am trying to make it what you believe that it currently is.

-Solstice64