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1v1, 2v2, 3v3, should BE 1v1, 2v2,3v3

1
AuthorMessage
Hero
Nov 22, 2010
747
KI has stated that pvp battles are balanced. They go out of their way to match up teams that are the same level and rank.

And then someone summons a minion of any kind and suddenly 1v1 becomes 1v2, or 2v2 becomes 2v3

To make it even worse, now people can summon Talos

and that turns a match that's already unbalanced because of the extra person into an incredibly unfair, unbalanced match because Talos has one thousand health. And he hits much harder than even the people that summoned him usually do.

If KI really wants PVP to be balanced they need to disallow the summoning of minions at all, for any school.

Then the teams might still be made up of levels and ranks that don't quite match but at least they will always have the same number of people on each side.

Explorer
May 12, 2010
77
Can every school not summon a minion? So, how exactly is that unfair?

If 1v1 and both summon a minion, it then becomes 2v2!

If 2v2 and everyone summons a minion, it then becomes a 4v4!

Everyone can buy the Talos Treasure card!

Everyone can summon a minion that they prefer!

So, to me, this is just complaining because you may not like it!

Defender
Apr 01, 2011
153
All I can say to this is that you can summon Talos yourself.

If you don't like farming for gold, then PvP is not for you. All GOOD PvPers MUST necessarily be good farmers as well because they need to fund their treasure deck.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2646
Minions are spells, just like any other in the deck. Henchmen are not. Henchmen would be unfair, while minions were consciously acknowledged by KI to be used in PvP. If minions were not allowed, how would Myth even compete in PvP? That school is based solely around the minion!!! Everything else with the Myth school is average (health, damage, etc) all based on the fact the power of Myth is their minion.

Explorer
Sep 14, 2009
55
I TOTALLY agree. I can't even tell you how many time I've lost ranked PvPs because of people doing what I call "cheating".

-Madison Silverblade
Level 46 pyromancer

Mastermind
Feb 16, 2009
328
hitmix wrote:
I TOTALLY agree. I can't even tell you how many time I've lost ranked PvPs because of people doing what I call "cheating".

-Madison Silverblade
Level 46 pyromancer


It's not cheating if you can do it, too... No one is telling you NOT to use minions.

Hero
Nov 22, 2010
747
RosamaryH wrote:
Can every school not summon a minion? So, how exactly is that unfair?


The point which you, and everyone else, seemed to have missed is that the match is supposed to be one to one, or two vrs two. NOT one vrs 2 or 2 vr 3.

It doesn't matter if every one CAN summon minions if they want - and that isn't a true statement anyway as some schools don't get their minions until real late while others, like myth, get them real early.

The point is that if you sign up to play just you and one other player, then THAT is what you should get.

And it doesn't matter if everyone can run off and buy Talos, or buy minions.

A 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 should BE a 1v1, 2v2,. 3v3 NOT turn into a 1v2, 2v3, 3v4

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
Sry I don't see the problem here... Minions are perfectly fine in pvp. Taking minions away from schools like myth is the equivalent of saying life should not be able to heal. Hope darthjt leftthe paper shredder for this complaint.

Hero
Nov 22, 2010
747
travisAk wrote:
Sry I don't see the problem here... Minions are perfectly fine in pvp. Taking minions away from schools like myth is the equivalent of saying life should not be able to heal. Hope darthjt leftthe paper shredder for this complaint.


Alrighty, then you shouldn't have any problem with allowing a friend to port into a pvp match in progress.

if an extra person in the form of a minion is okay with you then an extra person in the form of a player should be okay too. There is virtually NO DIFFERENCE.

So, since we're going to allow minions, then let's allow people to port in as well. I think that's pretty fair.


Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2646
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
travisAk wrote:
Sry I don't see the problem here... Minions are perfectly fine in pvp. Taking minions away from schools like myth is the equivalent of saying life should not be able to heal. Hope darthjt leftthe paper shredder for this complaint.


Alrighty, then you shouldn't have any problem with allowing a friend to port into a pvp match in progress.

if an extra person in the form of a minion is okay with you then an extra person in the form of a player should be okay too. There is virtually NO DIFFERENCE.

So, since we're going to allow minions, then let's allow people to port in as well. I think that's pretty fair.



Minions were designed to specifically augment a school. Like how the water elemental does not attack at all or that fire minions are really a long lasting damage over time spell. Minions have very little spell selection. Henchmen have great spell selection, but make bad choices. Real life human players have access to virtually any spell in the game and also bring with them the greatest assets of free will and the ability to anticipate (strategy). There is actually a huge difference between minions and real players.

If I'm facing a minion I know what the limitations of that minion are. I don't have that luxury facing two human opponents.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
travisAk wrote:
Sry I don't see the problem here... Minions are perfectly fine in pvp. Taking minions away from schools like myth is the equivalent of saying life should not be able to heal. Hope darthjt leftthe paper shredder for this complaint.


Alrighty, then you shouldn't have any problem with allowing a friend to port into a pvp match in progress.

if an extra person in the form of a minion is okay with you then an extra person in the form of a player should be okay too. There is virtually NO DIFFERENCE.

So, since we're going to allow minions, then let's allow people to port in as well. I think that's pretty fair.

alright then, for every person that ports in six minions will appear to compensate for the health difference OR summoning your friend should cost 14 pips. Fair is fair

Listen to me this sounds like a Childs complaint.... Everyone knows the kill minion right away trick.

Champion
Apr 18, 2010
407
Explorer
May 12, 2010
77
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
travisAk wrote:
Sry I don't see the problem here... Minions are perfectly fine in pvp. Taking minions away from schools like myth is the equivalent of saying life should not be able to heal. Hope darthjt leftthe paper shredder for this complaint.


Alrighty, then you shouldn't have any problem with allowing a friend to port into a pvp match in progress.

if an extra person in the form of a minion is okay with you then an extra person in the form of a player should be okay too. There is virtually NO DIFFERENCE.

So, since we're going to allow minions, then let's allow people to port in as well. I think that's pretty fair.



Virtually No difference? Between a minion and an actual Live player, one that cost pips to summon, has limited health and limited playing cards, vs a player, who can think and strategize, has unlimited cards, can be anywhere from low level to legendary, can have excellent health and resistance and costs no pips to summon!

Remember, we are talking rank pvp here not jokers wild! There is a huge difference! You just have to play smart and think how to defeat a minion or the player if a minion is summoned.

Delver
Oct 08, 2010
255
RosamaryH wrote:
Can every school not summon a minion? So, how exactly is that unfair?

If 1v1 and both summon a minion, it then becomes 2v2!

If 2v2 and everyone summons a minion, it then becomes a 4v4!

Everyone can buy the Talos Treasure card!

Everyone can summon a minion that they prefer!

So, to me, this is just complaining because you may not like it!


yes anyone can buy a talos treasure card. i would suggest buying one yourself and see if you like it. ( i normally ignore minions and just kill the actually wizard)

Survivor
Jun 10, 2009
36
well, unlike wizards, the minion is gone when it dies but a wizard stays until it can heal, so in my opinion, minions can be killed easy, i mean being a level 15 fire, i killed 3 taloses! and then there was a fourth that killed me. :-(

Defender
Aug 13, 2010
180
I do not agree with your statement, because not only can all Wizards summon Minions, Minions themselves are the specialty of the School of Myth.

Talos, however, is overpowered and I believe the Treasure Card version of it should have a Level requirement of at least 50.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
While I agree, almost everyone can summon a minion, or buy a treasure card to summon a minion, I do not agree with everyone that says, minions should be allowed in PvP!!!

It is as simple as what is stated in the topic.

YOU signed up for a match, YOU picked that it would be a 1v1, a 2v2, a 3v3, or a 4v4!

You did not sign up for a 2v1 matchup. Yes, you might be able to call your own minion, however, this is another one of those first turn advantages.

The player that goes first, can cast a minion first, being so, it is 2v1, while the person going second, who casts the minion, the minion, then attacks players 1 minion.

Now, how again is this fair? Talos is a high level treasure card, such as polymorph... Polymorph was level capped... As well as Talos should be...

Although, the most simple thing to do, is ban all minions from pvp, since you are choosing to fight in a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 matchup, not changing the rules to benefit yourself as you see fit.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
darthjt wrote:
While I agree, almost everyone can summon a minion, or buy a treasure card to summon a minion, I do not agree with everyone that says, minions should be allowed in PvP!!!

It is as simple as what is stated in the topic.

YOU signed up for a match, YOU picked that it would be a 1v1, a 2v2, a 3v3, or a 4v4!

You did not sign up for a 2v1 matchup. Yes, you might be able to call your own minion, however, this is another one of those first turn advantages.

The player that goes first, can cast a minion first, being so, it is 2v1, while the person going second, who casts the minion, the minion, then attacks players 1 minion.

Now, how again is this fair? Talos is a high level treasure card, such as polymorph... Polymorph was level capped... As well as Talos should be...

Although, the most simple thing to do, is ban all minions from pvp, since you are choosing to fight in a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 matchup, not changing the rules to benefit yourself as you see fit.
I have encountered many Talos warlords and used to complain about it. Darth, you were the one who actually changed my perspective and got me thinking about it... Five pips is plenty of time to set up a powerful offensive. What changed your line of though? Since your reply to my post about Talos in low level I have set up an Anti Talos deck with cards to cut him down fast. In ranked you, of all people, should realize that sone schools rely more heavily on minions than others. Although I do respect the will of some to want to play in a non minion arena I do not see that as being enough of an issue to take spells like minion cards out of pvp.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
travisAk wrote:
darthjt wrote:
While I agree, almost everyone can summon a minion, or buy a treasure card to summon a minion, I do not agree with everyone that says, minions should be allowed in PvP!!!

It is as simple as what is stated in the topic.

YOU signed up for a match, YOU picked that it would be a 1v1, a 2v2, a 3v3, or a 4v4!

You did not sign up for a 2v1 matchup. Yes, you might be able to call your own minion, however, this is another one of those first turn advantages.

The player that goes first, can cast a minion first, being so, it is 2v1, while the person going second, who casts the minion, the minion, then attacks players 1 minion.

Now, how again is this fair? Talos is a high level treasure card, such as polymorph... Polymorph was level capped... As well as Talos should be...

Although, the most simple thing to do, is ban all minions from pvp, since you are choosing to fight in a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 matchup, not changing the rules to benefit yourself as you see fit.
I have encountered many Talos warlords and used to complain about it. Darth, you were the one who actually changed my perspective and got me thinking about it... Five pips is plenty of time to set up a powerful offensive. What changed your line of though? Since your reply to my post about Talos in low level I have set up an Anti Talos deck with cards to cut him down fast. In ranked you, of all people, should realize that sone schools rely more heavily on minions than others. Although I do respect the will of some to want to play in a non minion arena I do not see that as being enough of an issue to take spells like minion cards out of pvp.


What made me change my perspective? Well, since there have been so many complaints and people wanting to fix mid level pvp, I decided to delete one legendary and restart another wizard...

Now, I have 1 level 12 balance warlord and 1 level 27 warlord... Now, they have not played enough to get all the commander gear yet, so they are roughing it out....

Still, now, as a low level, being 12, it is not as easy as you might think to dish out over 1000 damage to people with pets that have spell proof, spell defy, spritely, on their pet, plus gear that has resistance or commander gear... Being that low, even with treasure cards, to deal out over 1000 damage is quite a feat!

Add in a minion who destroys shields, blades, or shields themself and their player, the task gets extremely daunting...

Now, for a legendary wizard, or even most mid level wizards, this task is fairly easy, since they have multiple attack all spells and plenty of room in their deck for shields, attacks, etc... But for a level 12? Not much room in the deck at all, especially when you need to inflict plenty of damage, use infection so they can't heal, and protect yourself as much as possible...

I am not saying it is impossible, or that I can't cast a minion myself, but when you truly look at it, you did sign up for a 1v1 match, not a 2v1 or a 2v2 because of minions...

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2646
darthjt wrote:
While I agree, almost everyone can summon a minion, or buy a treasure card to summon a minion, I do not agree with everyone that says, minions should be allowed in PvP!!!

It is as simple as what is stated in the topic.

YOU signed up for a match, YOU picked that it would be a 1v1, a 2v2, a 3v3, or a 4v4!

You did not sign up for a 2v1 matchup. Yes, you might be able to call your own minion, however, this is another one of those first turn advantages.

The player that goes first, can cast a minion first, being so, it is 2v1, while the person going second, who casts the minion, the minion, then attacks players 1 minion.

Now, how again is this fair? Talos is a high level treasure card, such as polymorph... Polymorph was level capped... As well as Talos should be...

Although, the most simple thing to do, is ban all minions from pvp, since you are choosing to fight in a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 matchup, not changing the rules to benefit yourself as you see fit.


So what about Myth wizards? Just ban half of their deck????

You are mixing minions and first turn advantages in the same problem. Is the problem going first OR is it minions?

Now anyone who uses a minion is overpowered or unfair? Let me get my Water elemental minion that shields and heals itself and go dominate the PvP arena.

To me, NOT allowing minions is changing the rules to benefit yourself as you see fit.

If you don't keep a couple AOE spells in your 1 vs 1 deck, that is bad strategy, not a bad match up. I still spend an entire turn casting a minion spell and not attacking or disarming you. What did you do on that turn to me? Or what can you do to my minion to result in wasted pips AND turns?

YOU picked a matched where I can cast a spell that summons a minion. Always has been since 2009.

If KI implemented half of the restrictions players have suggested, PvP would be Ice Beetles and Fire Cats. No minions, no Tempest, no Efreet, no Judgment, no healing, no double shielding, no Ice Blades, no Earthquake, no Smokescreens, no treasure cards, no criticals, no high level cards (good luck defining that), no stunning, no pets (or certain pets), and only to be matched up with someone the same exact level and against someone the same exact level.

PvP complaints have sunk to a new low. We are no longer trying to improve KI's PvP system. We are trying to completely change it.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Half of Myths deck is not minions! Lets be realistic here and not over exaggerate!

Now, you might be a warlord, you might be a legend, I have no idea, but you have been around long enough.

How many spells do new wizards get? Or low Level warlords? a Level 10 deck is not that big, and the treasure side board is not that big either... Do you know how many multi attacks you would have to keep in your deck to kill a Talos Minion that shields himself with tower, at low level?

Maybe this is all about Talos, maybe just it should be level restricted, however, I still think that people should learn to be honorable, fair, and good. Do you require that 2v1 scenario to win? Are you not good enough by yourself?

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2646
darthjt wrote:
Half of Myths deck is not minions! Lets be realistic here and not over exaggerate!


Okay, realistically it is 1/3 of their spells. That is still a significant amount of cards Myth would not be able to use. So basically Myth would be left with two shield breaking spells and eight attack spells. Everyone gets traps, prisms, blades and multiple schools get stuns. So in 1v1 PvP, Myth would only be able to remove Tower Shields and Absorbs as a specialty then attack with mediocre damage spells. Minions were designed to offset the average damage of a Myth wizard.

Myth Attack Spells (8)
Blood Bat
Troll
Cyclops
Humongofrog
Minotaur
Earthquake
Orthus
Medusa

Myth Minion Spells (10)
Shield Minion
Subdue
Buff Minion
Siphon Health
Mend Minion
Draw Power
Golem Minion
Troll Minion
Cyclops Minion
Minotaur Minion
Talos

Myth Support Spells (12)
Myth Trap
Ether Shield
Time of Legend
Myth Shield
Vaporize
Myth Blade
Myth Prism
Pierce
Cleanse Ward
Stun
Blinding Light
Shatter

From the Myth School description:

The Myth School will train its student wizards to summon minions. Myth Wizards eventually get four different types of minions, each with a little different function. They have their own moderate damage spells with moderate accuracy, but a lot of their more functional spells deal with buffing, healing, and protecting their minions. They also have the ability of taking down defenses on other players, so if someone is stacking a bunch of defensive spells, a Myth wizard can get rid of them.

Defender
Apr 01, 2011
153
Ok crystal, i'm confused, why are you here complaining about minions and then asking people not to complain about minions in the 'Ranked PvP has no rules' thread?

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
kingurz wrote:
darthjt wrote:
Half of Myths deck is not minions! Lets be realistic here and not over exaggerate!


Okay, realistically it is 1/3 of their spells. That is still a significant amount of cards Myth would not be able to use. So basically Myth would be left with two shield breaking spells and eight attack spells. Everyone gets traps, prisms, blades and multiple schools get stuns. So in 1v1 PvP, Myth would only be able to remove Tower Shields and Absorbs as a specialty then attack with mediocre damage spells. Minions were designed to offset the average damage of a Myth wizard.

Myth Attack Spells (8)
Blood Bat
Troll
Cyclops
Humongofrog
Minotaur
Earthquake
Orthus
Medusa

Myth Minion Spells (10)
Shield Minion
Subdue
Buff Minion
Siphon Health
Mend Minion
Draw Power
Golem Minion
Troll Minion
Cyclops Minion
Minotaur Minion
Talos

Myth Support Spells (12)
Myth Trap
Ether Shield
Time of Legend
Myth Shield
Vaporize
Myth Blade
Myth Prism
Pierce
Cleanse Ward
Stun
Blinding Light
Shatter

From the Myth School description:

The Myth School will train its student wizards to summon minions. Myth Wizards eventually get four different types of minions, each with a little different function. They have their own moderate damage spells with moderate accuracy, but a lot of their more functional spells deal with buffing, healing, and protecting their minions. They also have the ability of taking down defenses on other players, so if someone is stacking a bunch of defensive spells, a Myth wizard can get rid of them.


Well, at least you did not exaggerate... Now, can you honestly say, that myth can't win in pvp without a minion? Myth can stun, stun all, pierce shields, shatter shields, has attack twice in one round attacks that go through shields, has good attacks, good accuracy, good damage boosts...

Nothing is wrong with Myth... Not even a low level... Now, at levels 5-14, how many of your spells are minions then? Would myth still be handicapped without minions?

This game is designed for everyone, even pvp is supposed to be for everyone... However, some things, such as match ups, Talos minion especially, scare new people away... Another thing that scares people away from PvP, is the attitudes of people in PvP. How are we setting an example and bringing new people into pvp?

The anything goes to win and beat a weaker newbie attitude must go, otherwise, there will only be Legends left to face!

Defender
Apr 01, 2011
153
Two things to resolve this issue.

This is an issue that relates to newbies not knowing what to do.

So Diego the Duelmaster can instruct the newbies during training that buying treasure cards at the bazaar will greatly increase their success in ranked PvP.

And then Professor Moolinda Wu can say that gardening with six wizards could allow you to buy as many treasure cards as you want without a legendary wizard on your roster - if the right seeds are planted. Can just imagine her saying: "Go ahead and figure it out!"

The point being as long as newbies are instructed how they can buy and fund their treasure card minions, there really isn't much of a point in debating all this against each other. I get what Darth is saying and I get what Kingurz is saying - I just think it is a waste of time to argue there not being minions in PvP bc it is not going to go away. So find ways around it.

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