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Major Problem with Mana Burn

AuthorMessage
Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89

When Celestia was on Test Realm (I wasn't around, so, yes, I am asking you) you all pretty much agreed that Simplify and Elucidate were overpowered, correct? Thus these spells were removed from trainers and only pop up now as stray treasure cards.

Well, there is currently an "Elucidate" problem with the function of the new Balance spell Mana Burn, when that Balance wizard is going first in a duel.

If you cast it for instance on a Death opponent with one white pip and three power pips, they will be reduced to one power pip. Now, if that turn the Death wizard cast, say Wraith, they will still post-Wraith have that one power pip left. In essence, Mana Burn, though 7 x 80 worth of base damage, which does become formidable, in a way (yet it importantly can't be enchanted with Extraordinary for pierce or Colossal for + damage) becomes a free Simplify cast on enemy spells.

This is the exact opposite of the card description "removes 3 pip[slots].

If that opponent had been casting Scarecrow, it goes up to an Elucidate penalty against the Balance wizard.

If that opponent had one more power pip and cast Skeletal Dragon, the effect of Mana Burn is actually a Double Elucidate.

I submitted countless bug reports and comments on Test Realm, trying to keep this problem out of live realm.

A card shouldn't contradict itself, no?

Why is it acceptable for only Balance to suffer a drawback to their spell of giving people Elucidate and Simplified attacks?

I hope there is some way of nipping this matter in the bud. Thank you.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
It's not giving your opponent an Elucidate or Simplify. The advantage of Elucidate and Simplify is that your opponent can cast a higher ranking spell faster than you or more quickly than normal. Your opponent is still casting their spell for the same pips the spell traditionally costs. The issue, is that Mana Burn is technically occurring before they are casting, so the arguement is that they shouldn't be able to cast that high ranking spell that round.

This is probably a programming issue that couldn't be solved in three weeks (like chain stunning couldn't). Or Mana Burn is simply not intended to be as advantageous in going first as almost all other spells traditionally are.

The fix isn't as easy as simply just preventing your opponent's spell. Since the spell would do more than stated on the card. It would be potentially causing 560 damage, removing 3 pips, and dispelling them.

Survivor
Aug 12, 2009
26
Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
Sorry the accurate card description states "...and loses 3 pips" not "removes 3 pips."

Which can be up to 6 pips really (3 power pips--which is in honesty quite a benefit) or as low as 3 white pips.

Still, it seems to be like a contradiction in terms under certain circumstances.

Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89

Sorry but you're wrong. Have you even used the card?

kingurz wrote:
It's not giving your opponent an Elucidate or Simplify. The advantage of Elucidate and Simplify is that your opponent can cast a higher ranking spell faster than you or more quickly than normal. Your opponent is still casting their spell for the same pips the spell traditionally costs. The issue, is that Mana Burn is technically occurring before they are casting, so the arguement is that they shouldn't be able to cast that high ranking spell that round.

This is probably a programming issue that couldn't be solved in three weeks (like chain stunning couldn't). Or Mana Burn is simply not intended to be as advantageous in going first as almost all other spells traditionally are.

The fix isn't as easy as simply just preventing your opponent's spell. Since the spell would do more than stated on the card. It would be potentially causing 560 damage, removing 3 pips, and dispelling them.


Semantics, semantics. It improves, cast from first position, pip cost on certain enemy spells in certain situations. It is actually consolidating enemies pips in the exact same manner as Elucidate and Simplify do.

Please, don't confuse me with the people who want it to "Stop enemy spells from casting" or a dispel to take place.

All I want is the enemy to "lose" the proper amount of pips.

There's nothing wrong with the way I've described it or understand it. Sorry.


Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
kingurz wrote:


The fix isn't as easy as simply just preventing your opponent's spell. Since the spell would do more than stated on the card. It would be potentially causing 560 damage, removing 3 pips, and dispelling them.


Can you please not give KI false information that the problem with this spell has anything do with dispels? It doesn't. There is no evidence whatsoever but blind supposition on your part that stopping the spell from being cast would have the same result as a dispel. Even if it stopped the spell from casting, you have no evidence whatsoever that it would ever make an opponent "lose" more than "3 power pips" or a white pip and 2 power pips or 3 regular pips.

Obviously, KI has some serious developmental problems with getting proper content onto Live realm. Spreading misinformation for them to read and think they're ok with the mistakes they've made hardly helps the problem.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
jojowild23 wrote:
Sorry the accurate card description states "...and loses 3 pips" not "removes 3 pips."


True. That's what it states on the card, but since wizards can't "find" those lost pips later or "win" them back, removing is probably a better term for description.

...and yes you are correct. The actual "loss" of pips is between 3-6 pips, but the card only states 3 (likely because explaining the power pip part, would take too much description space).

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
jojowild23 wrote:
Have you even used the card?


Yes. I have the spell and use it quite often.

jojowild23 wrote:
Semantics, semantics. It improves, cast from first position, pip cost on certain enemy spells in certain situations. It is actually consolidating enemies pips in the exact same manner as Elucidate and Simplify do.


The spell broken or not, simply has nothing to do with Elucidate or Simplify. The issue for most Balance wizards is that from first position it is not taking away the correct amount of pips in the same round. Elucidate and Simplify don't figure in at all. Some people on Central starting using it as a comparison, but they are not the same situation.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
jojowild23 wrote:
kingurz wrote:


The fix isn't as easy as simply just preventing your opponent's spell. Since the spell would do more than stated on the card. It would be potentially causing 560 damage, removing 3 pips, and dispelling them.


Can you please not give KI false information that the problem with this spell has anything do with dispels? It doesn't. There is no evidence whatsoever but blind supposition on your part that stopping the spell from being cast would have the same result as a dispel. Even if it stopped the spell from casting, you have no evidence whatsoever that it would ever make an opponent "lose" more than "3 power pips" or a white pip and 2 power pips or 3 regular pips.


It does result in a dispell if changed. Example:

If a Balance wizard goes second and casts Mana Burn, on the next turn, the opponent cannot select certain spells because they no longer have the correct pips (those cards are greyed out). So it is preventing them from casting.

If a Balance wizard goes first and casts Mana Burn, the opponent can select their card, because they have the correct pips. But if changed, it is stopping their casting, so it is doing more than stated on the card (if changed).

If your opponent casts a 3 pip spell, it is a dispell in the truest sense.

If your opponent casts a 6 pip spell in conjunction with powerpips, it is a dispell in the truest sense.

If your opponent casts a 7 pip spell or higher, it is not a dispell, but rather a fizzle in addition to removing 3 pips.

Either way, changing the spell is adding more to what the card states. This might be the only solution, but is also likely why the spell hasn't been changed yet. The "fix" lies in the game mechanics, since pips are calculated at the end of the round, not between.

jojowild23 wrote:
Obviously, KI has some serious developmental problems with getting proper content onto Live realm. Spreading misinformation for them to read and think they're ok with the mistakes they've made hardly helps the problem.


Again, this is not an easy fix, so holding up the release of Avalon for one spell that is still decent even with the flaw, makes no sense. And like I stated before, we don't even know if this was a mistake or not, KI may intend for this spell to work better from second, just like other spells work better from first (KI has never mentioned the spell is not working as intended). KI knows more about game mechanics than you or I, so no amount of "false" or "misinformation" will have any affect on them.

As with most heated debates, there is no right or wrong answer. There is simply a final decision by KI that benefits one group over the other (in this case, the Balance wizard receiving a slight advantage in going first or not). I too have a Transcedent Balance wizard that uses this spell. But I try not to look from a biased perspective of just one school. If changed, I will happily use the spell with the increased advantage from first, but I understand the change will affect six other schools, not just one.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
Additionally, the trade off in going first is that the Balance wizard is getting more damage against their opponent. Since going second they are only getting what's left after their opponent casts. If the change was to subtract pips, mid turn like that, wouldn't it possibly give Balance wizards 0 damage going second (if your opponent uses up all their pips right before you go)?


EDIT: Worded the benefit wrong the first time.

Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89

Kingurz, you're just not getting it.

Balance going first against another Balance with 14 pips. This set of circumstances will happen exactly in the way I describe below for as long as the spell remains broken:

Mana Burn=> down to 8 pips=>Chimera=>8 pips still, after that round is complete

Next round? Chimera. That is nothing other than the effect of a Quadruple Elucidate. Quit saying it's not. Mana Burn makes possible the consecutive turn spamming of rank 9 spells.

You're looking at minor stuff. What's more, your attributing it to my Balance bias.

I don't want a Balance utility spell that Elucidates enemy pip pools. The spell currently does. Period. End of story.


Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
kingurz wrote:
Additionally, the trade off in going first is that the Balance wizard is getting more damage against their opponent. Since going second they are only getting what's left after their opponent casts. If the change was to subtract pips, mid turn like that, wouldn't it possibly give Balance wizards 0 damage going second (if your opponent uses up all their pips right before you go)?

EDIT: Worded the benefit wrong the first time.


It already does subtract pips mid turn from first. And it already can give Balance wizards zero damage against opponent going second if opponent uses up all their pips just like in that same turn it won't clear debuff charms.

And it is Elucidating or Simplifying or worse opponent spells instead of properly removing excess pips they didnt spend at the end of the turn.

That is the way it is working. It never worked any other way in fact except the first few days on test when it cost 0 pips to test.


Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645

jojowild23, you're not getting it either (see my previous post above about heated debates)

The issue with Mana Burn is and always has been about the pips not being subtracted correctly (in certain situations). Either the spell is going to potentially stop an opponent's cast the same round while going first, or while going second the damage stated on the card is going to continue through even though your opponent didn't have that many pips by the time you casted. One of those statements should be true, but right now neither of those statements are happening in game. Again, it has nothing to do with Elucidate (it's not giving them anything, the problem is that it isn't taking anything away). That is a term on Central being used to describe the symptom of the pips not being subtracted correctly.

In other words, the fix may not be about stopping their casting at all (like our initial discussion about dispelling), but rather making sure that when Mana Burn is cast, the spell itself and the 3 pips removed are both subtracted in the same round.

Using your same example above:

Mana Burn=> down to 8 pips=>Chimera=>8 pips still (the fix would remove these 8 pips in addition), but your opponent will still have casted their Chimera. So in effect, Mana Burn will deplete their pips to zero the higher ranking spell they use, without adding more to the card description.

So while I disagree with the terms you are using and your solution to "prevent" the opponent casting, I have never disagreed with your previous statement:

"All I want is the enemy to "lose" the proper amount of pips."

Above is just my take for a fix (a part of your solution too, but without the spell prevention), but I don't know the game mechanics as well as KI. So I repeat my initial reponse to you in this thread, hoping you get my point of the entire reply to your thread.

"This is probably a programming issue that couldn't be solved in three weeks (like chain stunning couldn't). Or Mana Burn is simply not intended to be as advantageous in going first as almost all other spells traditionally are.

The fix isn't as easy as simply just preventing your opponent's spell. Since the spell would do more than stated on the card. It would be potentially causing 560 damage, removing 3 pips, and dispelling them."

I understand that all Balance wizards have the simple solution and can't imagine why KI would be dragging their feet on such as easy fix, but there is more going on than just a quick button push.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
jojowild23 wrote:
It already does subtract pips mid turn from first. And it already can give Balance wizards zero damage against opponent going second if opponent uses up all their pips just like in that same turn it won't clear debuff charms.


I know that. My point is that if Mana Burn is going to allow that cast to go through without the proper pips if a Balance wizard is first, then from second the Balance wizard's benefit while going second is to do the same (allow max damage based on pips before their opponent casted).

If the change ends up what I call dispelling/fizzling their spell, then the Balance wizard shouldn't get to do max damage either while going second.

My preferred change is that an opponent's spell is still allowed to cast (even they don't have the right amount of pips), but they lose additional pips afterwords.

The problem with Mana Burn is that it doesn't distinguish between normal and powerpips (just like how the system doesn't give you a white pip back after only using a rank 5 spell with 3 powerpips). I believe the spell should remove any remaining pips equal to the cost of the cast.

EDIT: Redid a test today with Mana Burn, apparently Mana Burn searches for any normal pips first, then goes to powerpips. That's why so many powerpips are being left (and allowing more higher ranking spells to be cast, outside of full max pips).

Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
jojowild23 wrote:
OK, thanks, we;'re on same page.


Yup, just the problem with semantics (like you already pointed out).

Explorer
Dec 29, 2009
87
My husband and I found out last night that when an enemy has lots of pips and you are casting first have one wiz use a fizzle (black mantle) second wizard uses manaburn. The enemy is hit with manaburn loses pips and fizzles so he wasn't able to use the pips. Making it so he couldn't use the pips and loses them without being able to cast. I don't like having to do it this way in fact I don't really care for the spell but this is what we discovered last night. Hope I put this so it is understandable. I do not like the mechanics of this spell.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2645
Heather824 wrote:
My husband and I found out last night that when an enemy has lots of pips and you are casting first have one wiz use a fizzle (black mantle) second wizard uses manaburn. The enemy is hit with manaburn loses pips and fizzles so he wasn't able to use the pips. Making it so he couldn't use the pips and loses them without being able to cast. I don't like having to do it this way in fact I don't really care for the spell but this is what we discovered last night. Hope I put this so it is understandable. I do not like the mechanics of this spell.


Not a bad strategy. Certainly brings up a use for Black Mantle. While I personally don't like the idea of Mana Burn doing more effects than already stated on the card, this could be an interesting addition to the card. Black Mantle could give the Balance wizard a 45% chance to force their opponent to not cast and lose their 3 pips, or allow their opponents 55% chance to cast a spell they no longer had the pips for.

Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
kingurz wrote:
Heather824 wrote:
My husband and I found out last night that when an enemy has lots of pips and you are casting first have one wiz use a fizzle (black mantle) second wizard uses manaburn. The enemy is hit with manaburn loses pips and fizzles so he wasn't able to use the pips. Making it so he couldn't use the pips and loses them without being able to cast. I don't like having to do it this way in fact I don't really care for the spell but this is what we discovered last night. Hope I put this so it is understandable. I do not like the mechanics of this spell.


Not a bad strategy. Certainly brings up a use for Black Mantle. While I personally don't like the idea of Mana Burn doing more effects than already stated on the card, this could be an interesting addition to the card. Black Mantle could give the Balance wizard a 45% chance to force their opponent to not cast and lose their 3 pips, or allow their opponents 55% chance to cast a spell they no longer had the pips for.


Yeah, also another thing you can do I've used is the Black Mantle->Mana Burn strategy when going second to prevent the NPC (PvP may be a slightly different matter) from making me go 5(6) pips in the red for 0 effect.

Another thing that I'm kind of hung up on is the fact that neither Supernova nor Mana Burn can receive Pierce enchantments from Extraordinary.

Or it breaks down like this with Mana Burn and Supernova enchantments:

Supernova: can be enchanted with Colossal and Extraordinary but oddly doesn't accept the pierce component of Extraordinary? huh?

Mana Burn: no enchantments, as it is technically a "manipulation."

I'd really really at least like to see somewhat the opposite of Supernova with Mana Burn: It can take Extraordinary with Piercing at a reduction to 85% or 90% accuracy. No Colossal is fine with me.

The reason is simple: Balance damage itself received 0% Spear piercing with Avalon update.

Also, it would really be nice to be able to replicate additional copies of Mana Burn post-Reshuffle. Also, make Treasure cards of it for side deck.


Survivor
May 03, 2009
7
I recently submitted a bug report about this as well.

I read through these posts, but you guys are too technical for me.

Maybe its been said already , but yeah, the spell helps the opposing player more than it hurts them.

It does do damage according to pips as it states.

It does remove 3 pips.

However,

The opponent is still able to use those pips that have been removed in that turn AND they still keep all of their other pips so yeah I guess I get the whole simplify thing here.

...3 power pips removed...just fought some red caps in avalon....one used medusa after i cast mana burn (in the same turn, I went first)...the only pips that disapearred were the ones mana burn took (3 power pips) so they got to cast medusa for 6 pips!

HAHAHAHA... I hope KI fixes this soon...till then I will not be using mana burn....and it has such potential :(

Delver
Oct 05, 2010
248
Actually for those people stating this is a bug, its actually not many non - balance wizards fear that mana burn has the possibility of becoming a universal dispel if it is changed, obviously something we don't want to implement into PvP.

Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
TheDarkestMask wrote:
Actually for those people stating this is a bug, its actually not many non - balance wizards fear that mana burn has the possibility of becoming a universal dispel if it is changed, obviously something we don't want to implement into PvP.


Does the card say on it "opponent loses X number of pips depending upon what spell they cast?"

No. It doesn't. End of story.

Non-balance wizards have nothing to fear in that regard.

A Universal dispel would be abhorrent to the game, imho. This is not the fix we want to see.

Explorer
Dec 29, 2009
87
Point is that young kids play this game in fact they market to kids and their parents. It is suppose to be kid friendly. This spell is causing too much confusion. If adults are having problems with it then I'm assuming the kids are too. KI make the spell more understandable or just change it, it is a hassle to use and hard to use appropriately.