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Those who take advantage and prey in Beastmoon Hunt

AuthorMessage
Champion
Apr 18, 2013
462
This is a problem that makes Beastmoon not all that much fun. You join solo and get put against a supergroup of 6 players in a group who like to use discord and voice chat. They prey on those who join with a friend or two.

This is not right.

If I have a friend who wants to try Beastmoon for the very first time, that friend would want to have me in their group. But that would instantly put us at risk of going against a supergroup.

I am asking the people in charge at KingsIsle to make a change so this stops happening. Make it so groups are more fairly matched with other groups.

I suggest the following:
A group of 6 should be queued versus a group of 5 or 6.
A group of 5 should be put against a group of 4-6.
A group of 4 should be put against a group of 3-5.
A group of 3 should be put against a group of 2-4.
A group of 2 should be put against a group of 0-3.

I think this will make it more fair for everyone and put an end to those who prey and take advantage of others. The only ones who would possibly oppose this would be a supergroup.

What is everyone else's thoughts on this matter? Please reply if you agree or have any other solution.

Survivor
Dec 30, 2013
7
yes pls make this a thing as i much perf randoms or duo/trio than to vs a full premade team

Explorer
Jun 19, 2010
82
I love your chart of grouped team match-ups dynamics.

I totally agree. This sort of game play is super obvious from Friday night until Sunday night. If KI can't alter the team dynamics to resolve the problem of groups in Beastmoon Hunt, many of us that either solo or group with one friend most likely will either stop playing or only do it once in a while. I much prefer the Mayhem version because there is not the elite grouped team dominating the field.

And if I stop playing Beastmoon, there is no reason for me to spend crowns to purchase the Scroll of Fortune 4 times a year.
I also have a friend that tried Beastmoon during this event. He is a 45 year old adult and has been playing Wizard101 for over 8 years. He quit doing PVP due to similar bad experiences. He did 5 matches and told me he will never go back due to the domination by the other teams. In 8 of those fights across 5 matches, he was dead before he even got one spell cast. He also commented on the just waiting around for one ring fight to be over before the other team would engage in another fight. In one match he never even got into a fight due to this type of play.

Please KI developers / programmers try to figure out a better match algorithm that will make the matches better matched in player ability. Right now it seems like the elite team players are totally enjoying devastating the lesser experienced / solo /small group/ random matched teams.

Survivor
Feb 19, 2021
17
stemogstel on Apr 6, 2022 wrote:
This is a problem that makes Beastmoon not all that much fun. You join solo and get put against a supergroup of 6 players in a group who like to use discord and voice chat. They prey on those who join with a friend or two.

This is not right.

If I have a friend who wants to try Beastmoon for the very first time, that friend would want to have me in their group. But that would instantly put us at risk of going against a supergroup.

I am asking the people in charge at KingsIsle to make a change so this stops happening. Make it so groups are more fairly matched with other groups.

I suggest the following:
A group of 6 should be queued versus a group of 5 or 6.
A group of 5 should be put against a group of 4-6.
A group of 4 should be put against a group of 3-5.
A group of 3 should be put against a group of 2-4.
A group of 2 should be put against a group of 0-3.

I think this will make it more fair for everyone and put an end to those who prey and take advantage of others. The only ones who would possibly oppose this would be a supergroup.

What is everyone else's thoughts on this matter? Please reply if you agree or have any other solution.
I completely agree with you.
My favourite way to play is Random VS Random.
That means I like to Solo Queue and fight other players who Solo Queued.
It makes the games a lot more interesting and unpredictable to me.
When faced with a group, there's no equality usually.
It happens the most during the weekends.

Delver
Mar 30, 2014
202
I do agree there are issues with randoms facing groups. But I also think the OP attributes too much advantage to groups and details of group size and is ignoring the big variations in individual skill levels even among grouped players

I am both a team and random player. I wouldn't assume that all teams are undefeatable vs randoms. Far from it. From my random experience, alone or with a friend or two, yes, it is frustrating and rather hopeless to vs the best teams. (But guess what, that is also true for the more casual full teams!) As a random versing more casual teams, I've been able to win sometimes, or at least put up a decent fight. And when playing with more casual teams, I've lost or nearly lost to apparent random teams. In my experience, some teams do voice chat and others don't and I don't see as much correlation with how well they do as the OP assumes. What I do see is that strong teams communicate well and respond fast to team needs. But that can and often does happen in game chat. It's just more personal preference of those players.

Grouping in and of itself doesn't automatically turn people into good players. I think really the most important thing is that most groups exclude players who are uncooperative, uncommunicative, or uninterested in strategic play. Without such players, random teams can be quite competitive, but if you get such players on your team, it's hard to win no matter who you face.

Even if KI makes the detailed match up system proposed, I don't think it's going to help that much. Many matches involving random players are still going to be determined by which team got that weak player. Perhaps a more realistic goal would be simpler, to try to match full teams with each other and full or nearly full randoms with each other, at least when the queue is pretty active. I actually thought that this was already supposed to be the way it works. I'm concerned that the OP's proposal is so restrictive that it would make the beastmoon queue wait times a lot longer. I'm already wondering how long the queue wait times will be if beastmoon is running all the time.

Champion
Apr 18, 2013
462
sword tree on Apr 15, 2022 wrote:
I do agree there are issues with randoms facing groups. But I also think the OP attributes too much advantage to groups and details of group size and is ignoring the big variations in individual skill levels even among grouped players

I am both a team and random player. I wouldn't assume that all teams are undefeatable vs randoms. Far from it. From my random experience, alone or with a friend or two, yes, it is frustrating and rather hopeless to vs the best teams. (But guess what, that is also true for the more casual full teams!) As a random versing more casual teams, I've been able to win sometimes, or at least put up a decent fight. And when playing with more casual teams, I've lost or nearly lost to apparent random teams. In my experience, some teams do voice chat and others don't and I don't see as much correlation with how well they do as the OP assumes. What I do see is that strong teams communicate well and respond fast to team needs. But that can and often does happen in game chat. It's just more personal preference of those players.

Grouping in and of itself doesn't automatically turn people into good players. I think really the most important thing is that most groups exclude players who are uncooperative, uncommunicative, or uninterested in strategic play. Without such players, random teams can be quite competitive, but if you get such players on your team, it's hard to win no matter who you face.

Even if KI makes the detailed match up system proposed, I don't think it's going to help that much. Many matches involving random players are still going to be determined by which team got that weak player. Perhaps a more realistic goal would be simpler, to try to match full teams with each other and full or nearly full randoms with each other, at least when the queue is pretty active. I actually thought that this was already supposed to be the way it works. I'm concerned that the OP's proposal is so restrictive that it would make the beastmoon queue wait times a lot longer. I'm already wondering how long the queue wait times will be if beastmoon is running all the time.
Hi. I think one of us did not read the others post in the way it was intended. Compare my suggestion for a solution with yours. My suggestion gives leeway so that a full group does not have to wait for another full group. But in your acclaimed simpler and more realistic goal, you want it to be full groups only be queued vs another full group? But then you fall back to exactly what I had suggested when you say to put full or nearly full randoms with each other.

Also, what I am writing about is joining the queue as a solo player and being put vs a supergroup. Not just any ordinary group. There are quite infamous groups out there that I personally consider to be a supergroup. If you play Beastmoon as much as I do, you'll know who they are. I do not have anything against the people in these supergroups, but when I solo queue, I do not want to be put against them. And I know the reason this happens.

The reason a solo queue gets put vs a supergroup is ... because someone on your team is grouped. The queue will match up grouped teams first. A group of 6 will have to wait in the queue for however long it takes until any other group is formed and queued. Many who group with a friend do not know this. They figure they will play a nice, fun game with their friend. But in reality, they are risking being put against those supergroups. And think, if someone is introducing the game to a friend, it means the friend is new. So, they are now at a major disadvantage. Your friend will have level 1 forms, while your supergroup enemy will have tier 5. Even if the group of 2 is ok facing a supergroup, it is not fair to the remaining 4 players.

There is more I can counter but I am wasting valuable Beastmoon Mayhem playing time to respond to this. Just know, the way it is now, a group of any amount will be facing any other group. A group of 2 can be put vs a group of 6. And by keeping it this way, it means a person who solo queues can be put against a supergroup too.

Delver
Mar 30, 2014
202
I do agree it would be good to try to match group sizes but I think your detailed set of rules is just not realistic for the waits I experience, and I play both at busy and off times.

What I suggested is not "exactly what you suggested". I don't think a group of 2 vs a group of 4 is a problem but you would make everyone wait longer to avoid this injustice. And while something resembling your rules might work during the busiest times, it isn't going to work at off times. Waits of 10-15 min are already quite common at times. Yes, I'd like them to take into account group sizes, but please don't break the queue in the process. That would result in many casual players losing patience with beastmoon and would be far worse for the health of the game than the occasional loss to a far better team.

I'm curious, how do you know that the reason you get matched to full teams is that someone in your random team is in a group of 2? Can you link to where KI has stated this is how it's currently implemented? I've played with many random teams where no one was apparently grouped, and yet we were matched to teams.

Champion
Apr 18, 2013
462
sword tree on Apr 22, 2022 wrote:
I do agree it would be good to try to match group sizes but I think your detailed set of rules is just not realistic for the waits I experience, and I play both at busy and off times.

What I suggested is not "exactly what you suggested". I don't think a group of 2 vs a group of 4 is a problem but you would make everyone wait longer to avoid this injustice. And while something resembling your rules might work during the busiest times, it isn't going to work at off times. Waits of 10-15 min are already quite common at times. Yes, I'd like them to take into account group sizes, but please don't break the queue in the process. That would result in many casual players losing patience with beastmoon and would be far worse for the health of the game than the occasional loss to a far better team.

I'm curious, how do you know that the reason you get matched to full teams is that someone in your random team is in a group of 2? Can you link to where KI has stated this is how it's currently implemented? I've played with many random teams where no one was apparently grouped, and yet we were matched to teams.
Oh my gosh, I had a perfectly worded response and a wrongful click of the mouse deleted it all. I was doing the finishing touches before copying it all. Ugh.

I know from experience and observance. I ask my team if anyone is in a group. We can also check immediately after exiting a Beastmoon match. How? Click on everyone you were in with and try adding them to group.
Let's ask KI to respond.
When grouping in Beastmoon Hunt, will the queue force a grouped team to wait for any other group?
The answer is an obvious yes. Any other answer would show a misunderstanding of the question.

As for our suggestions, you had said, "try to match full teams with each other and full or nearly full randoms with each other". That is nearly the same as I had suggested with the only difference being yours being okay with full teams vs full teams.

How it is now is broken. Players have lost their patience going in with a small group just to be put against a supergroup. This in itself forces those long queue times. It is because smaller groups have stopped forming as much.

There is a way groups can disband with no penalty. Supergroups know how. When a queue takes too long, they disband and solo queue. Or they wait it out. They know other groups need finish their run.

This topic is to make the queue more fair. Most everyone in the game agrees and loves what I had suggested here. Too bad membership is required to reply. Otherwise, you'd see a barrage of posts in support of this. It's those supergroups that get queued vs smaller groups that might not want it to change. I certainly would not consider them a far better team. They are organized, use discord, voice chat, and play monotonously. They have the game preset to their advantage. Does that make them better? No. It's a game we're fun and achievements should be the goal.

Anyways, I am real flustered and upset that my previous reply attempt vanished from accidentally pressing the button on the mouse that acts as the back arrow. I'm probably leaving out some things I was responding to with having to rewrite this. I want to end with repeating the question for KI to answer.

KingsIsle,
Will the Beastmoon Hunt queue force a grouped team to wait for any other group?

Explorer
Jun 16, 2010
58
sword tree on Apr 22, 2022 wrote:
I do agree it would be good to try to match group sizes but I think your detailed set of rules is just not realistic for the waits I experience, and I play both at busy and off times.

What I suggested is not "exactly what you suggested". I don't think a group of 2 vs a group of 4 is a problem but you would make everyone wait longer to avoid this injustice. And while something resembling your rules might work during the busiest times, it isn't going to work at off times. Waits of 10-15 min are already quite common at times. Yes, I'd like them to take into account group sizes, but please don't break the queue in the process. That would result in many casual players losing patience with beastmoon and would be far worse for the health of the game than the occasional loss to a far better team.

I'm curious, how do you know that the reason you get matched to full teams is that someone in your random team is in a group of 2? Can you link to where KI has stated this is how it's currently implemented? I've played with many random teams where no one was apparently grouped, and yet we were matched to teams.
Overall the issue is that this is supposed to be a random mashup of players.

When a group of players (no matter how many) pre establish a plan and know how to execute it; will immediately give an advantage over a group of random strangers.

This is the equivalent of a 4 player group in pvp who all work together and know what the plan is, going up agains 4 random people who just hit quick join. --Its just way unbalanced--

Realistically groups shouldn't be allowed for Beastmoon hunt, it should just be if you happen to end up together then congratulations. But I see no problem if you want to group up and join your friends in beat moon mayhem.

If you want to have the thrill of being a team and completing something then you should be doing Monster Mayhem.

Beastmoon hunt should be for the individual. Make it essentially survival of the fittest, every man for them self.
This would allow for much more even game.

Delver
Mar 30, 2014
202
As of today, rank pvp for lower levels is officially 100.0000% fair because it's completely dead. One of the reasons this happened is that players whined loudly and endlessly about it being unfair to face higher levels (never mind that they were also lower rank). So KI put in level limit bands that were so restrictive that most players couldn't get matches in a reasonable time frame anymore and just quit. I don't want to see the same thing happen to beastmoon.

I agree completely with your fundamental idea that KI should be trying to match up random v random and group v group. I've asked for this myself in other communications. But when you try to put in place too many restrictions, based upon your ideas of fairness (that aren't even accurate), that could crush the game entirely. Be careful what you ask for. Low level pvp players are living the consequence of that today.

Champion
Apr 18, 2013
462
sword tree on Apr 28, 2022 wrote:
As of today, rank pvp for lower levels is officially 100.0000% fair because it's completely dead. One of the reasons this happened is that players whined loudly and endlessly about it being unfair to face higher levels (never mind that they were also lower rank). So KI put in level limit bands that were so restrictive that most players couldn't get matches in a reasonable time frame anymore and just quit. I don't want to see the same thing happen to beastmoon.

I agree completely with your fundamental idea that KI should be trying to match up random v random and group v group. I've asked for this myself in other communications. But when you try to put in place too many restrictions, based upon your ideas of fairness (that aren't even accurate), that could crush the game entirely. Be careful what you ask for. Low level pvp players are living the consequence of that today.
So again, you agree with my chart. And then you say my ideas are not accurate? I don't even know what that means. Please do not try to explain any further. Instead of liking my idea then shooting it down, why don't we think up a solution? How about if they put in a 5-minute timer on queues? How would this work? After being queued for 5 minutes, a message appears on everyone's screen that reads, "5 minutes have past. Would you like to remain queued or disband? No penalty will be assigned if you choose to disband."

Problem solved.

Beastmoon players have become tired of solo queueing to be teamed with a group of 2 vs a supergroup team. If something is not done, Beastmoon will lose players and thus those supergroups will be waiting longer and longer. My proposal is to prevent this from happening.

We need a KI employee to reply.

Survivor
Dec 24, 2013
1
Rowantimes6 on Apr 10, 2022 wrote:
I love your chart of grouped team match-ups dynamics.

I totally agree. This sort of game play is super obvious from Friday night until Sunday night. If KI can't alter the team dynamics to resolve the problem of groups in Beastmoon Hunt, many of us that either solo or group with one friend most likely will either stop playing or only do it once in a while. I much prefer the Mayhem version because there is not the elite grouped team dominating the field.

And if I stop playing Beastmoon, there is no reason for me to spend crowns to purchase the Scroll of Fortune 4 times a year.
I also have a friend that tried Beastmoon during this event. He is a 45 year old adult and has been playing Wizard101 for over 8 years. He quit doing PVP due to similar bad experiences. He did 5 matches and told me he will never go back due to the domination by the other teams. In 8 of those fights across 5 matches, he was dead before he even got one spell cast. He also commented on the just waiting around for one ring fight to be over before the other team would engage in another fight. In one match he never even got into a fight due to this type of play.

Please KI developers / programmers try to figure out a better match algorithm that will make the matches better matched in player ability. Right now it seems like the elite team players are totally enjoying devastating the lesser experienced / solo /small group/ random matched teams.
4 x 4 over here - if not 4 x 5 (scrolls x wizards). That's a ton of effort to get them all through and beastmoon is one of the quickest point getters. $40-50 per season.

There's also someone out there that has at least 5 different accounts and she pops them all together into a team so can easily feed/strategize. You can't even guarantee a decent chat convo given the myriad of those constrained to no or only menu chat. Linked accounts should be considered and algo'ed too

Astrologist
Dec 31, 2009
1091
I am fairly sure this is already how queues work, perhaps there were no other groups to put them against?

Survivor
Feb 19, 2021
17
Mark D on May 4, 2022 wrote:
4 x 4 over here - if not 4 x 5 (scrolls x wizards). That's a ton of effort to get them all through and beastmoon is one of the quickest point getters. $40-50 per season.

There's also someone out there that has at least 5 different accounts and she pops them all together into a team so can easily feed/strategize. You can't even guarantee a decent chat convo given the myriad of those constrained to no or only menu chat. Linked accounts should be considered and algo'ed too
A group full of Beastmoon Heroes is the same thing as a group of someone using multiple accounts when they go against randoms. It is equally unfair. The problem is full groups having unfair advantage (when it happens)

Survivor
Nov 23, 2011
1
It makes beastmoon not fun at all