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Healing & damage treated vastly different

1
AuthorMessage
Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2225
Let’s examine all the reasons why healing and damage are not treated the same in the game:

1) Not every school gets their own, one step, healing spell. The kind where you cast the spell and it heals you directly; like Pixie or Sprite

2) We get accuracy boosting and damage boosting spells, both starting at L50 in Celestia, yet we don’t see a single heal boosting spell until Azteca; 3 worlds, and 36 levels later. In the Summer 2016 release, we have the second healing buff; 3 worlds and 24 levels after the first healing buff spell. There are only 2 healing boost cards in sun school where accuracy has 5 and damage has 6

3) Sun school has potent trap and sharpened blade, but NOTHING for healing blades

4) There’s traps for damage, shields for damage absorption, a trap for healing debuffing, but no traps for healing boosts

5) There is only ONE jewel for healing blades and it only yields a single healing blade.

6) There’s 20 X-pip or X-Ypip spells, which covers everything but heal boosting:

8 Threat Manipulation (Pacify and Mega Calm/Distract/Pacify/Soothe/Subdue/Taunt/Tranquilize)
4 Attack (Heck Hound, Judgement, Snowball Barrage, Tempest)
3 Minion summoning (Animate, Cyclops, Troll)
2 Damage reducing (Frozen Armor, Ice Armor)
2 Damage enhancing (Backdraft, Supercharge)
1 Healing (Dryad)

7) There are no shadow pip healing only spells

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Here’s my proposal to better balance out the quantity of damage enhancing vs heal enhancing spells:

1) Move:
Primordial to Celestia, to be trained at L58 (the same level as Gargantuan)
Radical to Zafaria to be trained at L64 (the same level as Colossal)

This would give us ONE healing spell at the same time both accuracy and damage enhancement get FOUR and TWO spells at the same time damage enhancement gets 5

2) Create the following new spells (1 TP to purchase):

200 Boost to one healing spell (L86 in Azteca; the same time as Primordial is currently)
10% Sharpened healing blade (L86 in Azteca; the same time as Sharpened Blade and Potent Trap)

This would give us half as many healing enhancements as damage and accuracy and one blade enhancement

3) Create the following jewels:

a 1 blade jewel for guiding light
a 2 blade jewel for both brilliant and guiding light

This would grant us single and dual healing item card blades and would put healing item blades equal to damage

4) Create an X-pip healing blade. Storm has a X-pip damage and X-pip damage buffing spell (both its primary purpose), Fire has an X-pip damage and X-pip damage buffing spell (both its primary purpose), Ice has an X-pip damage absorbing and various damage debuffing spells, (both its primary purpose), so why can’t life have a healing and heal buffing spell (both its primary purpose)??

Im not asking for healing and damage to be identical, but closing the gap would be nice

Delver
Aug 05, 2013
253
jadezillas get stronger? more rage? more jade inspiration?

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4163
Healing doesn't need as many buffs as attack damage for all schools does. It's really that simple. We never have the need to heal 100,000 on a player. We do have bosses that require hits that big. The game just doesn't need the changes you propose.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1016
To foster an accurate portrayal let's not forget the fact that:

-Healing is typically 2x stronger than damage pip for pip at base

-A critical heal cannot be blocked

-Just as there are very few ways to buff heals there are also very few ways to debuff heals.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2225
DevinSkullStone on Aug 23, 2016 wrote:
jadezillas get stronger? more rage? more jade inspiration?
PvP being broken is not a good enough reason not to level the playing field. What your real issue is, is not THIS idea, but you're upset they refuse to fix PvP and keep giving you a shoddy product that keeps getting worse. If you really want to make your voice heard, just stop playing PvP; like what others have done. If that's not enough, stop playing the game. However, telling another part of the game they can't get equality because your half is broken beyond repair is absolutely not a good enough reason to not do it.

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
But why?

There is no issue healing effectively now that they are treated dissimilarly. Currently a healing-geared Life Wizard can heal back an entire Wizard's health with a Satyr. (Not an Ice Wizard, but my Life regularly heals almost 4K on a Satyr - so a Storm. Add an aura or a Guiding Light and it's wasted pips.) A wizard set for Critical healing can do far more if they've got any gear boost in that Crit build.

These enhancements would seriously unbalance the game, because healing isn't crippled by its being underattended. Enhancements aren't necessary if the current healing is working.

I know PVEers hate to hear any mere mention of PVP, but it is the great equalizer. If something is unbalanced in PVP it is almost guaranteed to be unbalanced in PVE. Look at the arena; Life only breaks top-tier at Magus and Grand because it can outheal any and all damage without boosts, and once you reach Exalted and Prodigious, a healing strategy Life wizard is very difficult to beat. Give them any more boosts and they would be unbeatable, unbalanced.

I don't disagree that compared to damage, healing buffs are underrepresented. I'd argue it's because they aren't necessary - as healing is currently more than effective enough.

Signed, already OP enough Life Wizard.

Survivor
Dec 02, 2014
34
DevinSkullStone on Aug 23, 2016 wrote:
jadezillas get stronger? more rage? more jade inspiration?
I've noticed that you bring up PVP a lot in multiple threads, whether it be your own or someone else. And that you bring it up when it's not every something being discussed. This post is one of them.

So really what I'm trying to say is that, not everything is about, or relates to PVP. Granted this thread could be tied into PVP, but i doubt that is what the OP intended.

As for the idea that was proposed, i completely back this idea up. Healing needs an update in this game. It's not taken as seriously as in other RPG's in my opinion.

Squire
Jul 18, 2009
542
Sorry, I just don't see the need to change anything about healing. It's not represented as well as damage because that's how games like this should work. With all the time we would spend using these new spells, fights would drag on even longer than they already do because people would be constantly healing in a fit of total paranoia.

From the beginning, the game has encouraged us to embrace occasional low health and take a little risk now and then to defeat enemies. In the tutorial fight against Mali's goons in the tower, we're brought close to death's doorstep before Ambrose thinks "oh hey maybe I shouldn't let this kid die..." And many of the early solo bosses are like this too. You are meant to be desensitized to operating on low health now and then for the sake of beating a relatively hard boss. So instead of creating a crutch that will only end up spoiling players and slowing fights down, how about we continue to foster efficient and quick methods for defeating enemies, hm?

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2225
Paige - For your PvP aspect, Ill point you back to my previous comment on this thread. All I'm asking for is a more level playing field when it comes to damage and healing. You yourself admit that they're underrepresented, and go further to say they're not needed. All of my ideas may not be needed, but some more wouldnt be bad

Eric Stormbringer - you bring up a valid point about healing generally is 2x what damage is, but that doesnt mean that more couldnt be done. You'll note that I had very small healing increases on my upgrades.

WizardMaster - The reason why PvPers speak up, as you well know, is because it is in the game and people do it. What people tend to forget is that PvP is no longer the dominant aspect of the game it MAY have been. We see all kinds of people saying how PvP is dead, and we know that both sides of any suggestion will talk about how it will hurt one aspect or another. The main issue is, PvP is broken, possibly beyond repair (from all the complaints we've seen on it). Only KI knows if it's salvageable, but those who still PvP want a fair shake, and I certainly dont blame them. I just feel that BECAUSE it's soo messed up, it should be benched till they can truly fix it. A broken product is NOT better than a working one, nor is it a substitute

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1016
dayerider on Aug 24, 2016 wrote:
PvP being broken is not a good enough reason not to level the playing field. What your real issue is, is not THIS idea, but you're upset they refuse to fix PvP and keep giving you a shoddy product that keeps getting worse. If you really want to make your voice heard, just stop playing PvP; like what others have done. If that's not enough, stop playing the game. However, telling another part of the game they can't get equality because your half is broken beyond repair is absolutely not a good enough reason to not do it.
Excuse me? A part of the game that many customers enjoy is not a good enough reason for a customer to be concerned? The only way to make our feedback known is to stop partaking in the game we enjoy? In which case (by your logic) shouldn't you be leaving instead of making this thread?

He has just as much of a right to voice his concerns as you do. PvPers are not second class citizens and I am glad that KI with the recent changes has shown that it is finally starting to realize that. As for reasoning: we don't have to provide reasons why your proposed changes should not be made. It is up to you to provide reasons why they should be made. Is this inequality in healing causing issues in PvE? Are people failing to progress because of it? Are customers enjoyment being limited because of it? Justify your arguments, don't try to shut down legitimate concerns.

Champion
Jun 26, 2009
415
I really like your ideas, especially the X-pip healing boost spell. After looking at the information you've gathered it would seem myth (which I don't have), is due some X-pip love as well.

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
Again I ask "Why?" Why do they need to "level the playing field?" The only reason to add buffs of any kind is because they're needed. They're not needed. Why add them? What reason do we want something that doesn't actually help us? (No, it's no help if it just wastes pips and heals past a player's total health.)

Is there a problem healing effectively that we're unaware of? Is the point just to be able to heal 2Million? Why? WHY? Convince me healing needs a buff. Otherwise I'm abjectly averse to KI wasting any resources buffing something that needs no buffs.

My concerns related to PVP have nothing to do with it being broken and PVE not being. My reason for raising those concerns are that the arena is the great revealer. If something is unbalanced in the arena, it's likely unbalanced in the game. Healing is already overpowering damage there, so it's more than enough for the part of the game played against (stupid) AI.

Signed, already OP PVE Life Wizard.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2225
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 24, 2016 wrote:
Excuse me? A part of the game that many customers enjoy is not a good enough reason for a customer to be concerned? The only way to make our feedback known is to stop partaking in the game we enjoy? In which case (by your logic) shouldn't you be leaving instead of making this thread?

He has just as much of a right to voice his concerns as you do. PvPers are not second class citizens and I am glad that KI with the recent changes has shown that it is finally starting to realize that. As for reasoning: we don't have to provide reasons why your proposed changes should not be made. It is up to you to provide reasons why they should be made. Is this inequality in healing causing issues in PvE? Are people failing to progress because of it? Are customers enjoyment being limited because of it? Justify your arguments, don't try to shut down legitimate concerns.
no, what I said was that to scrap an idea because a broken part of the game will still be broken is not a good enough reason not to do something. I did NOT say that simply because a PvPer mentioned it wasnt good that it shouldnt be done. Reread my comment.

Survivor
Dec 02, 2014
34
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 24, 2016 wrote:
Excuse me? A part of the game that many customers enjoy is not a good enough reason for a customer to be concerned? The only way to make our feedback known is to stop partaking in the game we enjoy? In which case (by your logic) shouldn't you be leaving instead of making this thread?

He has just as much of a right to voice his concerns as you do. PvPers are not second class citizens and I am glad that KI with the recent changes has shown that it is finally starting to realize that. As for reasoning: we don't have to provide reasons why your proposed changes should not be made. It is up to you to provide reasons why they should be made. Is this inequality in healing causing issues in PvE? Are people failing to progress because of it? Are customers enjoyment being limited because of it? Justify your arguments, don't try to shut down legitimate concerns.
Someone got very triggered. But you're still right, people who PVP have just as much right to voice opinions and complaints just as much as those who don't.

Defender
Mar 10, 2014
169
except for shadow enhanced spells healing spells seem to be stronger then damage spells for the same pips any ways. satyr is 860 and sereph is 4 pips to and is 395.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4163
dayerider on Aug 24, 2016 wrote:
Paige - For your PvP aspect, Ill point you back to my previous comment on this thread. All I'm asking for is a more level playing field when it comes to damage and healing. You yourself admit that they're underrepresented, and go further to say they're not needed. All of my ideas may not be needed, but some more wouldnt be bad

Eric Stormbringer - you bring up a valid point about healing generally is 2x what damage is, but that doesnt mean that more couldnt be done. You'll note that I had very small healing increases on my upgrades.

WizardMaster - The reason why PvPers speak up, as you well know, is because it is in the game and people do it. What people tend to forget is that PvP is no longer the dominant aspect of the game it MAY have been. We see all kinds of people saying how PvP is dead, and we know that both sides of any suggestion will talk about how it will hurt one aspect or another. The main issue is, PvP is broken, possibly beyond repair (from all the complaints we've seen on it). Only KI knows if it's salvageable, but those who still PvP want a fair shake, and I certainly dont blame them. I just feel that BECAUSE it's soo messed up, it should be benched till they can truly fix it. A broken product is NOT better than a working one, nor is it a substitute
If you think that PvP should be benched, what really is the point of this idea? It's certainly not something that will help PvE at all. The only thing this idea would help is making the Elixir Vitae badge simple to get. It does nothing at all to improve PvE gameplay.

Delver
Aug 05, 2013
253
well you guys ofc what else am I suppose to do? If there is a healing buff, then there should be a jade nerf inbound. @dayerider its the least they can do, and I won't quit pvp anytime soon because nothing else to do, so whats next
@Wizardy well its ok I guess if healing gets a nerf somehow in pvp.

10-90lvl RIP jadezilla territory no healing buff in pvp!

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1016
dayerider on Aug 24, 2016 wrote:
no, what I said was that to scrap an idea because a broken part of the game will still be broken is not a good enough reason not to do something. I did NOT say that simply because a PvPer mentioned it wasnt good that it shouldnt be done. Reread my comment.
What I'm saying is you haven't given us a good reason why this should be implemented. Justify why this is needed.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1016
WizardryMastery on Aug 25, 2016 wrote:
Someone got very triggered. But you're still right, people who PVP have just as much right to voice opinions and complaints just as much as those who don't.
Triggered indeed. This is because we in the PvP community are tired of being told our opinions dont matter. No one in the housing, gardening or pet community gets told their stance doesnt matter because they are not the main game. Yet its a fad to tell PvPers this.

Champion
Jun 26, 2009
415
Dayrider, you don't have to justify or convince any player why your idea should be implemented. None of us are producers or developers of this game. They are the ones that need to be convinced. You have as much right to bring your ideas here just like everyone else. Likely to be implemented? Probably not, but your original post is well thought out and explained.

Here's hoping for some X-pip heal boosting love!

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1016
Mr Talon on Aug 25, 2016 wrote:
Dayrider, you don't have to justify or convince any player why your idea should be implemented. None of us are producers or developers of this game. They are the ones that need to be convinced. You have as much right to bring your ideas here just like everyone else. Likely to be implemented? Probably not, but your original post is well thought out and explained.

Here's hoping for some X-pip heal boosting love!
I agree with this. Both sides should be free to bring their arguments to the table for developers to consider. Its his right to offer or decline to offer justification. That being said, hopefully the strongest reasoning wins out.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2225
I'm going to address my thoughts on certain replies here, and then Im done talking about it. I feel the original post itself has reasons why the idea could be implemented, and it was never intended to be a PvP only issue. Remember, the first dissenting reply was solely based off of PvP.

Eric - I never said people dont like PvP, nor did I say to exclude them. I said that the PvP system is broken, and it being broken should never be a reason why an idea shouldnt be implemented. That's just bad logic. Sure, fix PvP, or at least make it more manageable. If you cant do that, then yes, I feel it should be removed; because it's been broken for a LONG time (just read all the posts suggesting how to fix it). I NEVER said PvPers were second class, and I stand by my comments that I feel PvP should be removed from the game if it cant be fixed. Eric, I NEVER said your opinion doesnt matter, I simply gave mine. You, all of you, everybody, has a right to their own opinions, even if it's against mine. *I* was not the one to bring PvP into this topic, it was DevinSkullStone first, then Paige claiming PvP is the "great equalizer", then you chimed in on one of my replies. I dont talk about PvP much at all, because I dont do it, nor see a reason to, but that doesnt mean others arent allowed to see a reason for, and even enjoy it.

Seethe - So, we're not allowed to suggest something if it doesnt belong in the PvP aspect of the game? As I've stated in other posts, just because an idea might not bnefit you (the general playing public), doesnt mean it's a bad idea.

Devinskullstone - what's next? I dont know, Im not an employee of KI, so ask them, not me

Survivor
Sep 10, 2009
20
Simply put I disagree with your suggestion. Being treated fairly doesn't mean being treated equally. When you treat 2 things equally, it might be fair for one thing but completely unfair to the other. Healing and damage are not the same and therefore shouldn't be treated equally, but they should be treated fairly. Fairly being interpreted differently among different people.

Damaged can be countered in more ways than healing can. There are many types of shields and weaknesses. In theory this means that if someone has insanely high damage, there are restriction mechanism available to the player in order to limit the amount of damage being dealt to them.

This isn't the same for healing. Apart from the negative healing ward from Lord of a Night, there is no other trainable negative healing charm/ward apart from infection (mass included) that can limit heals. The only other method is Doom and Gloom. This means that there isn't many avenues that can be explored in limiting heals if your idea was implemented, hypothetically speaking.

However I do agree that there should be a similar sharpened blade version for healing charms, but the exact percentage I cannot say for sure. I do agree with the suggestion about moving primordial/radical to lower levels.

About more X-pip healing spells, I think for an idea so radical that if such a spell should be introduced, it should be a shadow infused life spell.

A big no to an X-pip healing buffing spell as such a spell will eventually be used by wizards of any school therefore reducing the "specialness" of the Life's school healing.

If a wizard from another school of magic does a better healing job than the average life wizard, that is how you know that the life school is being exploited. I'm an ardent supporter of making each school distinguishable from the other and if your idea was implemented then a rebalancing should be done across the other 6 schools too.

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
dayerider on Aug 27, 2016 wrote:
I'm going to address my thoughts on certain replies here, and then Im done talking about it. I feel the original post itself has reasons why the idea could be implemented, and it was never intended to be a PvP only issue. Remember, the first dissenting reply was solely based off of PvP.

Eric - I never said people dont like PvP, nor did I say to exclude them. I said that the PvP system is broken, and it being broken should never be a reason why an idea shouldnt be implemented. That's just bad logic. Sure, fix PvP, or at least make it more manageable. If you cant do that, then yes, I feel it should be removed; because it's been broken for a LONG time (just read all the posts suggesting how to fix it). I NEVER said PvPers were second class, and I stand by my comments that I feel PvP should be removed from the game if it cant be fixed. Eric, I NEVER said your opinion doesnt matter, I simply gave mine. You, all of you, everybody, has a right to their own opinions, even if it's against mine. *I* was not the one to bring PvP into this topic, it was DevinSkullStone first, then Paige claiming PvP is the "great equalizer", then you chimed in on one of my replies. I dont talk about PvP much at all, because I dont do it, nor see a reason to, but that doesnt mean others arent allowed to see a reason for, and even enjoy it.

Seethe - So, we're not allowed to suggest something if it doesnt belong in the PvP aspect of the game? As I've stated in other posts, just because an idea might not bnefit you (the general playing public), doesnt mean it's a bad idea.

Devinskullstone - what's next? I dont know, Im not an employee of KI, so ask them, not me
You've done an excellent job explaining exactly what you want. You've given no reason why these things should be added, what benefit they practically provide, or why it's worth the development effort.

The only reason to buff something is if it needs to be buffed. Healing, with its few buffs, already outclasses damage. If it didn't, that would be a fantastic reason to add these buffs. As it is, there's no need and no practical use for any of it.

So, I'm asking, again, Why?

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1016
dayerider on Aug 27, 2016 wrote:
I'm going to address my thoughts on certain replies here, and then Im done talking about it. I feel the original post itself has reasons why the idea could be implemented, and it was never intended to be a PvP only issue. Remember, the first dissenting reply was solely based off of PvP.

Eric - I never said people dont like PvP, nor did I say to exclude them. I said that the PvP system is broken, and it being broken should never be a reason why an idea shouldnt be implemented. That's just bad logic. Sure, fix PvP, or at least make it more manageable. If you cant do that, then yes, I feel it should be removed; because it's been broken for a LONG time (just read all the posts suggesting how to fix it). I NEVER said PvPers were second class, and I stand by my comments that I feel PvP should be removed from the game if it cant be fixed. Eric, I NEVER said your opinion doesnt matter, I simply gave mine. You, all of you, everybody, has a right to their own opinions, even if it's against mine. *I* was not the one to bring PvP into this topic, it was DevinSkullStone first, then Paige claiming PvP is the "great equalizer", then you chimed in on one of my replies. I dont talk about PvP much at all, because I dont do it, nor see a reason to, but that doesnt mean others arent allowed to see a reason for, and even enjoy it.

Seethe - So, we're not allowed to suggest something if it doesnt belong in the PvP aspect of the game? As I've stated in other posts, just because an idea might not bnefit you (the general playing public), doesnt mean it's a bad idea.

Devinskullstone - what's next? I dont know, Im not an employee of KI, so ask them, not me
Then you misunderstand his argument. He isnt arguing it shouldnt be implemented because pvp is broken. He is arguing it shouldnt be implemented because it may cause even more issues. That's sound logic-if a house is on fire and someone suggested adding gasoline i would be against it as well.

Thats not to say I agree with him. You'll notice in my response i never argued against your idea but rather the way you framed it. Your ideas themselves seem well balanced and likely would have a negligible impact on PvP(except perhaps a shadow enhanced heal). However, when you attempt to frame your argument in terms of -pvp is broken so it should be discounted for this idea- then i take issue with it.

Similarly you'll notice most of the arguments are from a PvE perspective. Neither Seethe or Paige PvP and they bring up valid PvE reasons why it is not necessary. Hence myself asking you to justify why you feel these changes should be made.

1