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Why a Storm DoT won't help

AuthorMessage
Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89

If Ice has 70% resist (+20% treasure fortify) to Storm anyway, as darthjt suggests, and the highest- and widest-ranging in-school capacity to shield out storm attacks, on top of their 4500 health, my question becomes, how in the heck will a DoT even help Storm wizards against Ice? For what, at that high level of resistance, is the new 10 pip (unless you start redesigning the whole game entirely and give Storm a damage over time, say, in Mooshu or something) Storm Dot, clearing shields for? Wild Bolt? Ha!

As I see it, a Storm DoT will only mean more punishment to schools like Death, Life, Balance and maybe (just maybe) Myth who don't have as extraordinary in-school means at their disposal of coping with Storm damage as Ice wizards do. I mean, I can literally see the imbalances abounding. All so what?

I think this raises an interesting point: Can you power one school up to specifically fight one other school without throwing the whole balance of the game into chaos and leaving other schools in the dust?

However, I do think the new Zafaria Ice gear element resistance is a borderline unfair problem for not only Storm but Fire wizards as well. Instead of pretending I got an answer when I don't, I'll just leave it as an open question: How should KI address this problem? Tone down that Ice resist to Storm and Fire a few notches?

I know one solution, that may be unacceptable to some: Join Wizard Central Tournaments and duel there where 70% resistance is an illegal stat line.

Thought darthjt deserved the benefit of a post to talk about this specifically...

Delver
Aug 15, 2009
272
Thanks, Not many people know the true cruel fact that Storm is going powerless, and Ice becoming Immortals.

I do agree, for very long time I have been pushing for a reform to let Storm wizards obtain a trainable over time damage spell.

Maybe Storm Hound should be Trainable for Storm, and other school could train other cards. Maybe Fire could train for Firezilla, and Ice for Ice Hound and so on...

I still don't see how Storm or Fire going to do any damage to Ice...


Explorer
Aug 14, 2011
67
jojowild23 wrote:

If Ice has 70% resist (+20% treasure fortify) to Storm anyway, as darthjt suggests, and the highest- and widest-ranging in-school capacity to shield out storm attacks, on top of their 4500 health, my question becomes, how in the heck will a DoT even help Storm wizards against Ice? For what, at that high level of resistance, is the new 10 pip (unless you start redesigning the whole game entirely and give Storm a damage over time, say, in Mooshu or something) Storm Dot, clearing shields for? Wild Bolt? Ha!

As I see it, a Storm DoT will only mean more punishment to schools like Death, Life, Balance and maybe (just maybe) Myth who don't have as extraordinary in-school means at their disposal of coping with Storm damage as Ice wizards do. I mean, I can literally see the imbalances abounding. All so what?

I think this raises an interesting point: Can you power one school up to specifically fight one other school without throwing the whole balance of the game into chaos and leaving other schools in the dust?

However, I do think the new Zafaria Ice gear element resistance is a borderline unfair problem for not only Storm but Fire wizards as well. Instead of pretending I got an answer when I don't, I'll just leave it as an open question: How should KI address this problem? Tone down that Ice resist to Storm and Fire a few notches?

I know one solution, that may be unacceptable to some: Join Wizard Central Tournaments and duel there where 70% resistance is an illegal stat line.

Thought darthjt deserved the benefit of a post to talk about this specifically...


Yeah the new Zafaria gear could be considered unfair, and K.I knew that. That's why they didn't let you go to your backpack as soon as the match starts. An Ice could just see a guy with a Kraken pet, BOOM! Instant gear change, 70% resist to Storm, without Storm having one thing to do about it (Same with Fire, but it seems like they don't have a problem with it, just Storm, which is odd).

I saw a video with someone that had 100% Death resist (this wasn't PvP) and whenever someone attacked, it would just say "Death immune", which is crazy, only at level 70! So, what are we gonna see at level 100? 150% universal resist?

I know that I'll get a lot of negative responses about this with people that are Ice (that are very much enjoying themselves at the moment). But come on, think about the other schools. You know that Ice is kind of being a bully towards Storm, making their attacks do a 30% of what it's supposed to do. Sorry to all Ice people (this isn't only for Darthjt, because I know that he has two wizards of every school except for Ice and Balance), but maybe either reduce their resist towards Storm and Fire, reduce their Health, or even reduce some of their attacks. I have an Ice, and I would like to see the first option go into action.

When I first signed up for an Ice, I was told by Merle Ambrose that Ice wizards weren't excelling at damage, which means that their blades and bubble shouldn't be the strongest, right? I'm not saying that you should reduce the % increase of Iceblade and Balefrost, but maybe reduce the attack power by JUST a little, not enough to make people quit, but maybe enough to give Storm and other schools a fighting chance.

If you don't like that option, then at least make the resistance for Storm and Fire lower? Idk what you guys think, it's up to K.I. ultimately.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
All I can say on this, until I get more time to look at the new Crafted Ice gear, is that, once they put this on, they lower their resistance to Death, Life, Balance's balance attacks and Ice attacks (spectral Blast), Myth, and other Ice.

The question is, if you are in a Tourney, and you know who you are fighting and what to bring up your Ice's resistance, this makes sense.
On the other hand, do I want to lower my resistance to the other four, when going into Ranked, maybe not.

Just a passing thought.

Joe.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Lion359 wrote:
All I can say on this, until I get more time to look at the new Crafted Ice gear, is that, once they put this on, they lower their resistance to Death, Life, Balance's balance attacks and Ice attacks (spectral Blast), Myth, and other Ice.

The question is, if you are in a Tourney, and you know who you are fighting and what to bring up your Ice's resistance, this makes sense.
On the other hand, do I want to lower my resistance to the other four, when going into Ranked, maybe not.

Just a passing thought.

Joe.


Actually, the hat is 1 more universal resistance than Wintertusk crafted hat and 3 less than Waterworks hat. So, you are not losing much, if anything, if you go with the new athame that gives 3 resistance.

There is so many possible trade offs for ice, but none for the other schools.

What I do not understand, is how you are going to resist other schools more than your own school? Explain that!

All the way up to Dragonspyre, you got resistance to your own school. Ice got some resistance to all schools, not too much, but some. Now, this resistance and damage boosts are totally out of control.

Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
Lion359 wrote:
All I can say on this, until I get more time to look at the new Crafted Ice gear, is that, once they put this on, they lower their resistance to Death, Life, Balance's balance attacks and Ice attacks (spectral Blast), Myth, and other Ice.

The question is, if you are in a Tourney, and you know who you are fighting and what to bring up your Ice's resistance, this makes sense.
On the other hand, do I want to lower my resistance to the other four, when going into Ranked, maybe not.

Just a passing thought.

Joe.


While I don't remember specifically Joe, I am pretty sure the ugly truth about the new Ice gear is by putting it on Ice loses nothing in the way of general resistance to all the other schools you mention that they didn't already have in their combo Waterworks Hat and Shoes/Celestia Robe set-up.

I'd check my facts on that, to be sure, though, as I could be wrong.

Another thought I'll randomly throw out there: What can KI do about this problem without upsetting the Ice community? Well...I suppose the level 70 dungeon and its potential gear may take care of this anyway. But before then? Lol...

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
jojowild23 wrote:

If Ice has 70% resist (+20% treasure fortify) to Storm anyway, as darthjt suggests, and the highest- and widest-ranging in-school capacity to shield out storm attacks, on top of their 4500 health, my question becomes, how in the heck will a DoT even help Storm wizards against Ice? For what, at that high level of resistance, is the new 10 pip (unless you start redesigning the whole game entirely and give Storm a damage over time, say, in Mooshu or something) Storm Dot, clearing shields for? Wild Bolt? Ha!

As I see it, a Storm DoT will only mean more punishment to schools like Death, Life, Balance and maybe (just maybe) Myth who don't have as extraordinary in-school means at their disposal of coping with Storm damage as Ice wizards do. I mean, I can literally see the imbalances abounding. All so what?

I think this raises an interesting point: Can you power one school up to specifically fight one other school without throwing the whole balance of the game into chaos and leaving other schools in the dust?

However, I do think the new Zafaria Ice gear element resistance is a borderline unfair problem for not only Storm but Fire wizards as well. Instead of pretending I got an answer when I don't, I'll just leave it as an open question: How should KI address this problem? Tone down that Ice resist to Storm and Fire a few notches?

I know one solution, that may be unacceptable to some: Join Wizard Central Tournaments and duel there where 70% resistance is an illegal stat line.

Thought darthjt deserved the benefit of a post to talk about this specifically...


First, for reference, please see this thread for the stats using the new crafted ice gear as I have spelled it out in quite a large amount of detail, including a strategy using a treasure infallible and storm prisms to really cut through some of that resistance:

https://www.wizard101.com/forums/show/23.ftl

Next, with the question of resistance that you reference darthjt on, was it assumed 50% resist plus a 20% treasure fortify? If so, the actual effective resistance is 60% for the four rounds of fortify, not 70%. To the general question of too much resistance, however, I do agree. You'll find that I argued quite a long time ago (back at the dawn of the Celestia era) to implement aggregate caps on key values such as resistance. In other words, you could wear anything you wanted, but the maximum combined value would be blah leaving anything over that cap as rendered useless and therefore would encourage people to look for other perhaps more balanced combinations.

I believe I argued at the time for 40% resist and something like 60 to 70% damage boost... I don't recall now. At any rate, the point was to cap the maximum benefit knowing that insanely high resistance becomes disproportionately advantageous at a certain point due to the KI system of percentage based combat. I will also say that the new armor pierce system gives you a way to dramatically reduce effective resistance since it is not percentage based and directly reduces the first resistance value encountered. In that, I think KI may have inadvertently given spells like heckhound far to much punch, not to mention scald... Regardless, does anyone else finally think it might actually be time to have aggregate value caps?

Explorer
Jul 05, 2009
54
Ok, I have been following the discussion on this blog for a while, and I felt like I need to get involved.

First, to everyone who says that storm "needs" or "should" get a dot because they face a lot of shields are either:
1) not good enough with storm
2) they don't pvp enough.

I pvp about 4 to 5 hours a day! That has increased since I am now on vacation (from college). Recently, around midnight, I've been fighting a storm guy at the arena. We're both well overlord. I fought him 3 times the past two days. I went first first ALL three times. I was lucky, and i mean REALLY lucky to beat him once. Now, don't get me wrong, I am AMAZING with my fire. You have less than 20% chance of beating me, REGARDLESS of who you are, or the gear you have. But let's get back to the issue.

All 3 times, he used the SAME strategy, and believe me, sometimes even when you know the strategy of your opponent, it's really hard to beat him. Especially, if your opponent is a storm or myth who spams talos.
Anyway, here's what he always does: Cast a treasure infallible (20% accuracy, 20% pierce) and then he starts spamming bolt and bats and kraken. The ONLY way to counter is attack is to continuously shield, and that is IF you get lucky that a shield comes up. As of right now, the way my deck is set up, I have 15 shields that can counter a storm attack. But there's no way all 15 will line up. On top of his incredibly high health for a storm (which was around the 2700's), his critical seems to be working every other round. Now, it's already hard enough to counter that guy single (LOW PIP) attack, imagine giving him a free dot. How on earth would this guy be stoppable? Oh yeah, he used insane bolt during all 3 of our duels, and it NEVER backfired.
I didnt come here to complain. Even though I knew that i would NEVER want to come across him in the arena again. I just took it, knowing that he's the result of one the flaws of the game, which includes, giving an 80%-chance-to-hit over a 1000 damage low-pip-spell to a school who already has insanely high critical, and insanely high power boost.

So when people ask for dot, they really do not know how that would change pvp.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
doudjy wrote:
Ok, I have been following the discussion on this blog for a while, and I felt like I need to get involved.

First, to everyone who says that storm "needs" or "should" get a dot because they face a lot of shields are either:
1) not good enough with storm
2) they don't pvp enough.

I pvp about 4 to 5 hours a day! That has increased since I am now on vacation (from college). Recently, around midnight, I've been fighting a storm guy at the arena. We're both well overlord. I fought him 3 times the past two days. I went first first ALL three times. I was lucky, and i mean REALLY lucky to beat him once. Now, don't get me wrong, I am AMAZING with my fire. You have less than 20% chance of beating me, REGARDLESS of who you are, or the gear you have. But let's get back to the issue.

All 3 times, he used the SAME strategy, and believe me, sometimes even when you know the strategy of your opponent, it's really hard to beat him. Especially, if your opponent is a storm or myth who spams talos.
Anyway, here's what he always does: Cast a treasure infallible (20% accuracy, 20% pierce) and then he starts spamming bolt and bats and kraken. The ONLY way to counter is attack is to continuously shield, and that is IF you get lucky that a shield comes up. As of right now, the way my deck is set up, I have 15 shields that can counter a storm attack. But there's no way all 15 will line up. On top of his incredibly high health for a storm (which was around the 2700's), his critical seems to be working every other round. Now, it's already hard enough to counter that guy single (LOW PIP) attack, imagine giving him a free dot. How on earth would this guy be stoppable? Oh yeah, he used insane bolt during all 3 of our duels, and it NEVER backfired.
I didnt come here to complain. Even though I knew that i would NEVER want to come across him in the arena again. I just took it, knowing that he's the result of one the flaws of the game, which includes, giving an 80%-chance-to-hit over a 1000 damage low-pip-spell to a school who already has insanely high critical, and insanely high power boost.

So when people ask for dot, they really do not know how that would change pvp.


This is your rebuttle for not wanting storm to have a DoT?

You want to tell me I am not good enough with storm?
You want to tell me I don't know how to pvp?

By the sound of your post, you are the one that needs help with PvP. A 20% chance of beating you? I think you over rate yourself too much.

Fire is one of the best schools for PvP and one of the hardest to defend against. It does not matter how much critical a storm has, Fire should have over 150 critical block and about 170 critical storm block, if you got your gear right.

You should also have around 40% resistance, if not more.

Now, what you are saying with Wild Bolt and Insane Bolt, that is pure luck, not skill, so this one person with the same strategy was getting lucky and you did not have a good enough strategy to defeat his luck.

He could have very easily been hitting 10 damage with wildbolts, or could have very easily backfired and killed himself with insane bolts.

Regardless, you should always have treasure tower shields in your side deck. So, failing to not have a shield is who's fault? Also, Storm does not have 100% power pip chance. Storm only gets 2500 health, not 2700. Unless their pet has health gift.

Storm also does not have the health of fire, over 1000 less than fire has. Fire has high damage, spells that damage and heal, DoT spells, Efreet.

Sorry, but I don't see how Fire loses to storm, except for severe luck and bad play on fire's part.

A+ Student
Dec 11, 2010
1639
lucara wrote:
jojowild23 wrote:

If Ice has 70% resist (+20% treasure fortify) to Storm anyway, as darthjt suggests, and the highest- and widest-ranging in-school capacity to shield out storm attacks, on top of their 4500 health, my question becomes, how in the heck will a DoT even help Storm wizards against Ice? For what, at that high level of resistance, is the new 10 pip (unless you start redesigning the whole game entirely and give Storm a damage over time, say, in Mooshu or something) Storm Dot, clearing shields for? Wild Bolt? Ha!

As I see it, a Storm DoT will only mean more punishment to schools like Death, Life, Balance and maybe (just maybe) Myth who don't have as extraordinary in-school means at their disposal of coping with Storm damage as Ice wizards do. I mean, I can literally see the imbalances abounding. All so what?

I think this raises an interesting point: Can you power one school up to specifically fight one other school without throwing the whole balance of the game into chaos and leaving other schools in the dust?

However, I do think the new Zafaria Ice gear element resistance is a borderline unfair problem for not only Storm but Fire wizards as well. Instead of pretending I got an answer when I don't, I'll just leave it as an open question: How should KI address this problem? Tone down that Ice resist to Storm and Fire a few notches?

I know one solution, that may be unacceptable to some: Join Wizard Central Tournaments and duel there where 70% resistance is an illegal stat line.

Thought darthjt deserved the benefit of a post to talk about this specifically...


Yeah the new Zafaria gear could be considered unfair, and K.I knew that. That's why they didn't let you go to your backpack as soon as the match starts. An Ice could just see a guy with a Kraken pet, BOOM! Instant gear change, 70% resist to Storm, without Storm having one thing to do about it (Same with Fire, but it seems like they don't have a problem with it, just Storm, which is odd).

I saw a video with someone that had 100% Death resist (this wasn't PvP) and whenever someone attacked, it would just say "Death immune", which is crazy, only at level 70! So, what are we gonna see at level 100? 150% universal resist?

I know that I'll get a lot of negative responses about this with people that are Ice (that are very much enjoying themselves at the moment). But come on, think about the other schools. You know that Ice is kind of being a bully towards Storm, making their attacks do a 30% of what it's supposed to do. Sorry to all Ice people (this isn't only for Darthjt, because I know that he has two wizards of every school except for Ice and Balance), but maybe either reduce their resist towards Storm and Fire, reduce their Health, or even reduce some of their attacks. I have an Ice, and I would like to see the first option go into action.

When I first signed up for an Ice, I was told by Merle Ambrose that Ice wizards weren't excelling at damage, which means that their blades and bubble shouldn't be the strongest, right? I'm not saying that you should reduce the % increase of Iceblade and Balefrost, but maybe reduce the attack power by JUST a little, not enough to make people quit, but maybe enough to give Storm and other schools a fighting chance.

If you don't like that option, then at least make the resistance for Storm and Fire lower? Idk what you guys think, it's up to K.I. ultimately.


how can anyone have 100% resist to death thats imposable

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
darthjt wrote:
Regardless, you should always have treasure tower shields in your side deck. So, failing to not have a shield is who's fault? Also, Storm does not have 100% power pip chance. Storm only gets 2500 health, not 2700. Unless their pet has health gift.


This config (off the top of my head) exceeds 2700 without a pet health gift:

Skyscream Hood, Stormcaller's Medicine Cloak, Storm Caller's Rangers, Sidhe Staff, Jungle King's Roar, Berserker's Rage Pendant, Shaka's Lighting Loop, generic pet w/ +15% global resist (other 2 talents left intentionally blank) yielding:

Effective Stats
---------------
+2841 max health
+530 max mana
+73% storm damage
+35% global resist
+49% ice resist
+49% fire resist
+21% global accuracy
+29% storm accuracy
+141 storm crit
+135 fire crit block
+160 ice crit block
+60 storm crit block
+73% power pip chance
+25% incoming healing
+3% armor pierce

If you would like to substitute Wintery Wildbeest's Clompers for the Storm Caller's Rangers then stats would be like so:

Effective Stats
---------------
+2833 max health
+530 max mana
+73% storm damage
+6% ice damage
+40% global resist
+21% global accuracy
+34% storm accuracy
+23% ice accuracy (steal ward cards anyone?)
+141 storm crit
+79 global crit block
+125 fire crit block
+120 ice crit block
+139 storm crit block
+73% power pip chance
+25% incoming healing

Let that sink in for a bit, particularly because of the constant complaints that the only warlords in the arena are ice and fire. You still have 2 pet talents to work with. You could go pain-giver and storm-giver (bringing you up to 85% storm damage), you could pick one of three selfish talents and fire-proof or ice-proof (whichever school gives you the biggest problem) and bring your gobal resistance up to 16 with 11 more for either ice or fire, or you could go with waterever it is that helps you with your particular strategy.

darthjt wrote:
Storm also does not have the health of fire, over 1000 less than fire has. Fire has high damage, spells that damage and heal, DoT spells, Efreet.

Sorry, but I don't see how Fire loses to storm, except for severe luck and bad play on fire's part.


One thing that you can be certain of is that right now, you are going to face ice and fire in the arena, and probably a lot. Frame either of the configs above through a prism of treasure infallible. Talk about fizzle proof. Smokescreen is almost entirely out the window with the winterbeest's stompers and how's about a fizzle proof steal ward? If you go the other way, you can gain significant resist to ice and fire meaning their prisms are useless, but a storm prism isn't. Too many storm shields? Did he throw in a couple of myth too? How about a literally fizzle proof shatter (even with a smokescreen) possibly in conjunction with a storm prism?

All of the hubub lately makes me think that people are getting "locked" into their idea of perfect gear again, like they did at the end of DS. What happened to the out-of-the-box thinking that led to early combinations like level 55 crafted hat and robe combined with level 58 boots? Seriously, consider how many options are available and how this new armor pierce attribute can work with your new strategies.

Explorer
Jul 05, 2009
54
darthjt wrote:
doudjy wrote:
Ok, I have been following the discussion on this blog for a while, and I felt like I need to get involved.

First, to everyone who says that storm "needs" or "should" get a dot because they face a lot of shields are either:
1) not good enough with storm
2) they don't pvp enough.

I pvp about 4 to 5 hours a day! That has increased since I am now on vacation (from college). Recently, around midnight, I've been fighting a storm guy at the arena. We're both well overlord. I fought him 3 times the past two days. I went first first ALL three times. I was lucky, and i mean REALLY lucky to beat him once. Now, don't get me wrong, I am AMAZING with my fire. You have less than 20% chance of beating me, REGARDLESS of who you are, or the gear you have. But let's get back to the issue.

All 3 times, he used the SAME strategy, and believe me, sometimes even when you know the strategy of your opponent, it's really hard to beat him. Especially, if your opponent is a storm or myth who spams talos.
Anyway, here's what he always does: Cast a treasure infallible (20% accuracy, 20% pierce) and then he starts spamming bolt and bats and kraken. The ONLY way to counter is attack is to continuously shield, and that is IF you get lucky that a shield comes up. As of right now, the way my deck is set up, I have 15 shields that can counter a storm attack. But there's no way all 15 will line up. On top of his incredibly high health for a storm (which was around the 2700's), his critical seems to be working every other round. Now, it's already hard enough to counter that guy single (LOW PIP) attack, imagine giving him a free dot. How on earth would this guy be stoppable? Oh yeah, he used insane bolt during all 3 of our duels, and it NEVER backfired.
I didnt come here to complain. Even though I knew that i would NEVER want to come across him in the arena again. I just took it, knowing that he's the result of one the flaws of the game, which includes, giving an 80%-chance-to-hit over a 1000 damage low-pip-spell to a school who already has insanely high critical, and insanely high power boost.

So when people ask for dot, they really do not know how that would change pvp.


This is your rebuttle for not wanting storm to have a DoT?

You want to tell me I am not good enough with storm?
You want to tell me I don't know how to pvp?

By the sound of your post, you are the one that needs help with PvP. A 20% chance of beating you? I think you over rate yourself too much.

Fire is one of the best schools for PvP and one of the hardest to defend against. It does not matter how much critical a storm has, Fire should have over 150 critical block and about 170 critical storm block, if you got your gear right.

You should also have around 40% resistance, if not more.

Now, what you are saying with Wild Bolt and Insane Bolt, that is pure luck, not skill, so this one person with the same strategy was getting lucky and you did not have a good enough strategy to defeat his luck.

He could have very easily been hitting 10 damage with wildbolts, or could have very easily backfired and killed himself with insane bolts.

Regardless, you should always have treasure tower shields in your side deck. So, failing to not have a shield is who's fault? Also, Storm does not have 100% power pip chance. Storm only gets 2500 health, not 2700. Unless their pet has health gift.

Storm also does not have the health of fire, over 1000 less than fire has. Fire has high damage, spells that damage and heal, DoT spells, Efreet.

Sorry, but I don't see how Fire loses to storm, except for severe luck and bad play on fire's part.


Well, well, well

I cant say that I am surprised. You're the FIRST person I knew would reply to my post. After all, you have been storm's number advocate, whining about how low their critical block is, how low their health is, and supposedly how everyone else is becoming more powerful than them. So, do you have any credibility at all? Wouldn't you be happy if storm critical was 500 as well as their block. Oh, their health could be raised to 4000 too, and, let's give them a zero DoT.

I don't over rate myself at all. I have been pvp a long time enough to know how good I am. I laugh when I see these posts about pvpers being "unbeatable". I am seriously thinking about joining one of those tournaments on central. But anyway, I KNOW it was pure luck. That's why I didn't come here to complain about it. This is the ONLY way a storm can ever hope to beat me. Spam bolt and bats, and hope you get lucky. It doesn't matter if I go fist or not.

My deck is set up in such a way that I do NOT need treasure tower shields. So when you say that I should always have tower treasures in my side deck, sorry, but I've been pvp enough to know how to set up my deck. Just because a storm got really lucky to beat me is not going to make change my strategy. Moreover, I am not a "shield spammer", though, I will shield myself.

The storm I fought DID have over 2700, I do not know how he did it (maybe it was his amulet, but he did have it). Please, fire DOES NOT have over 1000 health more than storm. Though, it can be possible, that is an exaggeration on your part to prove a point. As of now, my health is 3051. I can easily change it to 3143. However, if I wanna get 3500, like you suggest, then I'd have to take off my life amulet to use another amulet that give health (like the gargantuan amulet), which storm can also do.

Again, in ALL of your posts I read where you defend storm, you only state their con's, failing to mention their pro's. Like highest boost, by FAR. Highest critical, and the ONLY school in the game who can do over 2000 damage with just 2 pips (a critical bolts that hits a thousand). So If that isn't enough of a shield breaker, you might as well ask you for your version of hound!

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
gtarhannon wrote:
darthjt wrote:
Regardless, you should always have treasure tower shields in your side deck. So, failing to not have a shield is who's fault? Also, Storm does not have 100% power pip chance. Storm only gets 2500 health, not 2700. Unless their pet has health gift.


This config (off the top of my head) exceeds 2700 without a pet health gift:

Skyscream Hood, Stormcaller's Medicine Cloak, Storm Caller's Rangers, Sidhe Staff, Jungle King's Roar, Berserker's Rage Pendant, Shaka's Lighting Loop, generic pet w/ +15% global resist (other 2 talents left intentionally blank) yielding:

Effective Stats
---------------
+2841 max health
+530 max mana
+73% storm damage
+35% global resist
+49% ice resist
+49% fire resist
+21% global accuracy
+29% storm accuracy
+141 storm crit
+135 fire crit block
+160 ice crit block
+60 storm crit block
+73% power pip chance
+25% incoming healing
+3% armor pierce

If you would like to substitute Wintery Wildbeest's Clompers for the Storm Caller's Rangers then stats would be like so:

Effective Stats
---------------
+2833 max health
+530 max mana
+73% storm damage
+6% ice damage
+40% global resist
+21% global accuracy
+34% storm accuracy
+23% ice accuracy (steal ward cards anyone?)
+141 storm crit
+79 global crit block
+125 fire crit block
+120 ice crit block
+139 storm crit block
+73% power pip chance
+25% incoming healing

Let that sink in for a bit, particularly because of the constant complaints that the only warlords in the arena are ice and fire. You still have 2 pet talents to work with. You could go pain-giver and storm-giver (bringing you up to 85% storm damage), you could pick one of three selfish talents and fire-proof or ice-proof (whichever school gives you the biggest problem) and bring your gobal resistance up to 16 with 11 more for either ice or fire, or you could go with waterever it is that helps you with your particular strategy.

darthjt wrote:
Storm also does not have the health of fire, over 1000 less than fire has. Fire has high damage, spells that damage and heal, DoT spells, Efreet.

Sorry, but I don't see how Fire loses to storm, except for severe luck and bad play on fire's part.


One thing that you can be certain of is that right now, you are going to face ice and fire in the arena, and probably a lot. Frame either of the configs above through a prism of treasure infallible. Talk about fizzle proof. Smokescreen is almost entirely out the window with the winterbeest's stompers and how's about a fizzle proof steal ward? If you go the other way, you can gain significant resist to ice and fire meaning their prisms are useless, but a storm prism isn't. Too many storm shields? Did he throw in a couple of myth too? How about a literally fizzle proof shatter (even with a smokescreen) possibly in conjunction with a storm prism?

All of the hubub lately makes me think that people are getting "locked" into their idea of perfect gear again, like they did at the end of DS. What happened to the out-of-the-box thinking that led to early combinations like level 55 crafted hat and robe combined with level 58 boots? Seriously, consider how many options are available and how this new armor pierce attribute can work with your new strategies.


Well, according to everyone else that posts, storm has:
89% damage or more
More than 141 critical I have seen them say over 200
I have even seen them say that storm has more than 40% global resistance!
Now they are stating 2700 and even you 2800 health. All while having a life mastery amulet? Really?

Funny thing is, you can get storm to have probably 3500 health or more, sure, because there is gear that allows this, but you will lose power, accuracy, resistance, critical, etc. You might be able to get that 1 stat you want to say 89% damage boost, but what are you giving up in return?

My point is, that storm, has lost power, accuracy, and resistance more than any other school in the game during the Zafaria Release. Is this not a fact? Look at the figures you just gave.

While yes, a prism can help, again, this will be "if" storm is going first, because the second that prism is out, another storm shield will be put in place. I don't think it is too much to ask for:
Treasure DoT Spell for storm, such as storm hound or storm elf, to be given out as drops during gardening.
Or A special new spell from an expansion that gives a DoT AoE spell.

New spells are made all the time, look at the new snowball pet, it has it's own spell. Even a Rank 3 Dot AoE for storm would be a great addition!

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
doudjy wrote:
darthjt wrote:
doudjy wrote:
Ok, I have been following the discussion on this blog for a while, and I felt like I need to get involved.

First, to everyone who says that storm "needs" or "should" get a dot because they face a lot of shields are either:
1) not good enough with storm
2) they don't pvp enough.

I pvp about 4 to 5 hours a day! That has increased since I am now on vacation (from college). Recently, around midnight, I've been fighting a storm guy at the arena. We're both well overlord. I fought him 3 times the past two days. I went first first ALL three times. I was lucky, and i mean REALLY lucky to beat him once. Now, don't get me wrong, I am AMAZING with my fire. You have less than 20% chance of beating me, REGARDLESS of who you are, or the gear you have. But let's get back to the issue.

All 3 times, he used the SAME strategy, and believe me, sometimes even when you know the strategy of your opponent, it's really hard to beat him. Especially, if your opponent is a storm or myth who spams talos.
Anyway, here's what he always does: Cast a treasure infallible (20% accuracy, 20% pierce) and then he starts spamming bolt and bats and kraken. The ONLY way to counter is attack is to continuously shield, and that is IF you get lucky that a shield comes up. As of right now, the way my deck is set up, I have 15 shields that can counter a storm attack. But there's no way all 15 will line up. On top of his incredibly high health for a storm (which was around the 2700's), his critical seems to be working every other round. Now, it's already hard enough to counter that guy single (LOW PIP) attack, imagine giving him a free dot. How on earth would this guy be stoppable? Oh yeah, he used insane bolt during all 3 of our duels, and it NEVER backfired.
I didnt come here to complain. Even though I knew that i would NEVER want to come across him in the arena again. I just took it, knowing that he's the result of one the flaws of the game, which includes, giving an 80%-chance-to-hit over a 1000 damage low-pip-spell to a school who already has insanely high critical, and insanely high power boost.

So when people ask for dot, they really do not know how that would change pvp.


This is your rebuttle for not wanting storm to have a DoT?

You want to tell me I am not good enough with storm?
You want to tell me I don't know how to pvp?

By the sound of your post, you are the one that needs help with PvP. A 20% chance of beating you? I think you over rate yourself too much.

Fire is one of the best schools for PvP and one of the hardest to defend against. It does not matter how much critical a storm has, Fire should have over 150 critical block and about 170 critical storm block, if you got your gear right.

You should also have around 40% resistance, if not more.

Now, what you are saying with Wild Bolt and Insane Bolt, that is pure luck, not skill, so this one person with the same strategy was getting lucky and you did not have a good enough strategy to defeat his luck.

He could have very easily been hitting 10 damage with wildbolts, or could have very easily backfired and killed himself with insane bolts.

Regardless, you should always have treasure tower shields in your side deck. So, failing to not have a shield is who's fault? Also, Storm does not have 100% power pip chance. Storm only gets 2500 health, not 2700. Unless their pet has health gift.

Storm also does not have the health of fire, over 1000 less than fire has. Fire has high damage, spells that damage and heal, DoT spells, Efreet.

Sorry, but I don't see how Fire loses to storm, except for severe luck and bad play on fire's part.


Well, well, well

I cant say that I am surprised. You're the FIRST person I knew would reply to my post. After all, you have been storm's number advocate, whining about how low their critical block is, how low their health is, and supposedly how everyone else is becoming more powerful than them. So, do you have any credibility at all? Wouldn't you be happy if storm critical was 500 as well as their block. Oh, their health could be raised to 4000 too, and, let's give them a zero DoT.

I don't over rate myself at all. I have been pvp a long time ago to know how good I am. I laugh when I see these post about pvp being "unbeatable". I am seriously thinking about joining one of those tournaments on central. But anyway, I KNOW it was pure luck. That's why I didn't come here to complain about it. This is the ONLY way a storm can ever hope to beat me. Spam bolt and bats, and hope you get lucky. It doesn't matter if I go fist or not.

My deck is set up in such a way that I do NOT need treasure tower shields. So when you say that I should always have tower treasures in my side deck, sorry, but I've been pvp enough to know how to set up my deck. Just because a storm got really lucky to beat me is not going to make change my strategy. Moreover, I am not a "shield spammer", though, I will shield myself.

The storm I fought DID have over 2700, I do not know how he did it (maybe it was his amulet, but he did have it). Please, fire DOES NOT have over 1000 health more than storm. Though, it can be possible, that is an exaggeration on your part to prove a point. As of now, my health is 3051. I can easily change it to 3143. However, if I wanna get 3500, like you suggest, then I'd have to take off my life amulet to use another amulet that give health (like the gargantuan amulet), which storm can also do.

Again, in ALL of your posts I read where you defend storm, you only state their con's, failing to mention their pro's. Like highest boost, by FAR. Highest critical, and the ONLY school in the game who can do over 2000 damage with just 2 pips (a critical bolts that hits a thousand). So If that isn't enough of a shield breaker, you might as well ask you for your version of hound!


If you read the posts, like the one Gtarhannon made, storms boost is being substancially lowered.

From 89% to 73%, that is a 16% drop! Storms health will be lowered, same as fire's health if you use a Life Mastery Amulet, so storm wont have 2700 as fire wont have 3500. People pick and choose the gear they want to wear. Fire can have over 200 critical attack, depending on their gear, but they have to give up things to get it. As Does storm.

Then you go and talk about and complain about storm's using WildBolt and Insane Bolt, using luck to win?

Well, if Storm was allowed to have more than a pet or amulet DoT spell, then it might be a lot easier to strategize rather than base wins upon luck and bolts.

So, why are you posting against a DoT, when you should be for it, so that storm wont use Bolts all the time.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
darthjt wrote:
Actually, the hat is 1 more universal resistance than Wintertusk crafted hat and 3 less than Waterworks hat. So, you are not losing much, if anything, if you go with the new athame that gives 3 resistance.


Let's take this one item at a time instead of confusing the issue referencing stats from other items like there is no real tradeoff there. The Frostbit Hood stats are:

+354 Max Health
+3% Global Accuracy
+12% Ice Damage
+12% Global Resist
+53 Ice Critical
+5% Incoming Healing

The Frozen Breath Shroud stats are:

+400 Max Health
+2% Ice Accuracy
+7% Ice Damage
+9% Global Resist
+9% Fire Resist
+9% Storm Resist
+79 Ice Critical
+1 Elemental Blade Item Card

You're giving up 5% ice damage, 1% ice accuracy, 3% global accuracy (directly pertains to successful casting of things like weakness and satyr), 5% incoming healing, and 3% global resist to gain 46 health, 26 ice critical, a net gain of 6% resist to fire and storm, and an elemental blade item card. That's a lot more sacrifice than you implied with the statement "you are not losing much, if anything, if you go with the new athame that gives 3 resistance", and I haven't even begun to demonstrate losses associated with swapping out to the new ring (and it is a ring that gives +3% global resist by the way).

darthjt wrote:
There is so many possible trade offs for ice, but none for the other schools.


This statement is completely false. The other schools have LOTS of tradeoff options as well. I've posted tons of stats and reference info to a variety of threads lately, so I won't re-post again here unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

darthjt wrote:
What I do not understand, is how you are going to resist other schools more than your own school? Explain that!


For the same reason that you learn a shield for the other schools in your group from your teacher, but have to seek out another trainer for your own school.

darthjt wrote:
All the way up to Dragonspyre, you got resistance to your own school. Ice got some resistance to all schools, not too much, but some. Now, this resistance and damage boosts are totally out of control.


Look, I argued a LONG time ago to introduce aggregate stat caps specifically to prevent this kind of thing from happening, to have an open discussion to talk about what we thought was reasonable for all key stats. You weren't interested. Now, while I think that 70% does seem like a lot on its surface, when I consider the loss of damage potential, pip percent, and accuracy required to get there against the potential armor pierce values that may be directly subtracted from that figure, it suddenly seems less out of control.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
gtarhannon wrote:
darthjt wrote:
Actually, the hat is 1 more universal resistance than Wintertusk crafted hat and 3 less than Waterworks hat. So, you are not losing much, if anything, if you go with the new athame that gives 3 resistance.


Let's take this one item at a time instead of confusing the issue referencing stats from other items like there is no real tradeoff there. The Frostbit Hood stats are:

+354 Max Health
+3% Global Accuracy
+12% Ice Damage
+12% Global Resist
+53 Ice Critical
+5% Incoming Healing

The Frozen Breath Shroud stats are:

+400 Max Health
+2% Ice Accuracy
+7% Ice Damage
+9% Global Resist
+9% Fire Resist
+9% Storm Resist
+79 Ice Critical
+1 Elemental Blade Item Card

You're giving up 5% ice damage, 1% ice accuracy, 3% global accuracy (directly pertains to successful casting of things like weakness and satyr), 5% incoming healing, and 3% global resist to gain 46 health, 26 ice critical, a net gain of 6% resist to fire and storm, and an elemental blade item card. That's a lot more sacrifice than you implied with the statement "you are not losing much, if anything, if you go with the new athame that gives 3 resistance", and I haven't even begun to demonstrate losses associated with swapping out to the new ring (and it is a ring that gives +3% global resist by the way).

darthjt wrote:
There is so many possible trade offs for ice, but none for the other schools.


This statement is completely false. The other schools have LOTS of tradeoff options as well. I've posted tons of stats and reference info to a variety of threads lately, so I won't re-post again here unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

darthjt wrote:
What I do not understand, is how you are going to resist other schools more than your own school? Explain that!


For the same reason that you learn a shield for the other schools in your group from your teacher, but have to seek out another trainer for your own school.

darthjt wrote:
All the way up to Dragonspyre, you got resistance to your own school. Ice got some resistance to all schools, not too much, but some. Now, this resistance and damage boosts are totally out of control.


Look, I argued a LONG time ago to introduce aggregate stat caps specifically to prevent this kind of thing from happening, to have an open discussion to talk about what we thought was reasonable for all key stats. You weren't interested. Now, while I think that 70% does seem like a lot on its surface, when I consider the loss of damage potential, pip percent, and accuracy required to get there against the potential armor pierce values that may be directly subtracted from that figure, it suddenly seems less out of control.


Again, someone whom is not looking at the bigger picture.

This is what my ice wears:
Frozen Breath Shroud
Shivering Breath Robes
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Elissa's Chill Band
and a Polar Cat that has Spell Proof 10, Spell Defy 5, Spritely, and Pain giver 6.

The new Stats are as follows:

4392 Health at level 68

38 Ice Damage Boost & 13 to all other schools
46% Resistance to All schools with 74% to Fire & 67% to Storm
13% accuracy boost to all schools with 20% Ice Accuracy Boost= 100%
120 Ice Critical
134 Ice Critical Block and 80 Critical block all
81% power pip chance
28% Incoming Healing

You can make a few trade offs giving more damage without losing much resistance, or get more crticial block. How is it that you don't see this gear is better for Ice than it is for any other school?

Also, the Elemental Blades on the hat, stack with normal elemental blades allowing for 2 35% boosts.
If you go with the Ice Blade Amulet, that gives an additional 45% damage boost blade with 155 extra health. Which this blade stacks with a treasure ice blade card for 2 45% Ice Blade Boosts.

Who has the health, and resistance to all schools to match this?


Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
darthjt wrote:
Well, according to everyone else that posts, storm has:
89% damage or more
More than 141 critical I have seen them say over 200
I have even seen them say that storm has more than 40% global resistance!
Now they are stating 2700 and even you 2800 health. All while having a life mastery amulet? Really?


I never said that. In fact, I have taken pains to post the gear configs and stat summaries when I begin referencing multiple stats specifically to make certain that people can see all the tradeoffs you're making. You said that:

darthjt wrote:
Storm only gets 2500 health, not 2700.


I demonstrated a config that is different. Currently, it is common that storm has 89% or 90% damage boost. They then complain about lack of health and no resistance or critical block. I point out options, then they complain about losing power. I left two open talent slots on the pet in my config. You can make those both "Giver" talents and bring the damage from 73% up to 85%.

darthjt wrote:
Funny thing is, you can get storm to have probably 3500 health or more, sure, because there is gear that allows this, but you will lose power, accuracy, resistance, critical, etc. You might be able to get that 1 stat you want to say 89% damage boost, but what are you giving up in return?


Well, probably not actually. That's what bites. There isn't gear that can really make Storm excel at health, just like there isn't gear that can make ice excel at damage. Period. That is why both of those schools generally tinker with other ideas, then land back at either extreme damage for storm or extreme resist for ice.

darthjt wrote:
My point is, that storm, has lost power, accuracy, and resistance more than any other school in the game during the Zafaria Release. Is this not a fact? Look at the figures you just gave.


Have they lost power, accuracy, and some global resist? Yes. Have they sacrificed more than the other schools? No they haven't. That is emphatically NOT a fact. They've had losses, certainly. They have to make tradeoffs, certainly. But everyone does. I am looking at not only the figures I gave (which again were only thrown together to prove a point), but also at a detailed item by item comparison for all the schools. Quit implying that other schools (and its obvious that you mean ice when you say it) aren't making rather large sacrifices to get their extreme stats as well.

darthjt wrote:
While yes, a prism can help, again, this will be "if" storm is going first, because the second that prism is out, another storm shield will be put in place. I don't think it is too much to ask for:
Treasure DoT Spell for storm, such as storm hound or storm elf, to be given out as drops during gardening.


I have no problem with storm elf treasure cards dropping from gardening. I do have a problem with readily available storm hound treasure cards though, frankly, its a mild objection.

darthjt wrote:
Or A special new spell from an expansion that gives a DoT AoE spell.

New spells are made all the time, look at the new snowball pet, it has it's own spell. Even a Rank 3 Dot AoE for storm would be a great addition!


Really? *sigh* What happened to you man? Maybe a new pet, but a DoT AoE storm spell? Seriously?

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
darthjt wrote:
If you read the posts, like the one Gtarhannon made, storms boost is being substancially lowered.

From 89% to 73%, that is a 16% drop!


Whoa, whoa, whoa! Before you start citing what I posted as a drop in damage, make sure to point out that I left 2 open talent slots on the pet I used. If you put two "giver" talents on it, you can bring that damage back up to 85%. If I'm not mistaken, the 89% damage you're citing includes a pet as well. Therefore, its hardly a solid gear to gear comparison you're citing there. If I am mistaken, I'd appreciate it if you post the entire config you're referencing so that I can do a detailed analysis.

I'm not really interested the the rest of your argument with this guy. My current focus is only on the gear.

Explorer
Jul 05, 2009
54
darthjt wrote:
doudjy wrote:
darthjt wrote:
doudjy wrote:
Ok, I have been following the discussion on this blog for a while, and I felt like I need to get involved.

First, to everyone who says that storm "needs" or "should" get a dot because they face a lot of shields are either:
1) not good enough with storm
2) they don't pvp enough.

I pvp about 4 to 5 hours a day! That has increased since I am now on vacation (from college). Recently, around midnight, I've been fighting a storm guy at the arena. We're both well overlord. I fought him 3 times the past two days. I went first first ALL three times. I was lucky, and i mean REALLY lucky to beat him once. Now, don't get me wrong, I am AMAZING with my fire. You have less than 20% chance of beating me, REGARDLESS of who you are, or the gear you have. But let's get back to the issue.

All 3 times, he used the SAME strategy, and believe me, sometimes even when you know the strategy of your opponent, it's really hard to beat him. Especially, if your opponent is a storm or myth who spams talos.
Anyway, here's what he always does: Cast a treasure infallible (20% accuracy, 20% pierce) and then he starts spamming bolt and bats and kraken. The ONLY way to counter is attack is to continuously shield, and that is IF you get lucky that a shield comes up. As of right now, the way my deck is set up, I have 15 shields that can counter a storm attack. But there's no way all 15 will line up. On top of his incredibly high health for a storm (which was around the 2700's), his critical seems to be working every other round. Now, it's already hard enough to counter that guy single (LOW PIP) attack, imagine giving him a free dot. How on earth would this guy be stoppable? Oh yeah, he used insane bolt during all 3 of our duels, and it NEVER backfired.
I didnt come here to complain. Even though I knew that i would NEVER want to come across him in the arena again. I just took it, knowing that he's the result of one the flaws of the game, which includes, giving an 80%-chance-to-hit over a 1000 damage low-pip-spell to a school who already has insanely high critical, and insanely high power boost.

So when people ask for dot, they really do not know how that would change pvp.


This is your rebuttle for not wanting storm to have a DoT?

You want to tell me I am not good enough with storm?
You want to tell me I don't know how to pvp?

By the sound of your post, you are the one that needs help with PvP. A 20% chance of beating you? I think you over rate yourself too much.

Fire is one of the best schools for PvP and one of the hardest to defend against. It does not matter how much critical a storm has, Fire should have over 150 critical block and about 170 critical storm block, if you got your gear right.

You should also have around 40% resistance, if not more.

Now, what you are saying with Wild Bolt and Insane Bolt, that is pure luck, not skill, so this one person with the same strategy was getting lucky and you did not have a good enough strategy to defeat his luck.

He could have very easily been hitting 10 damage with wildbolts, or could have very easily backfired and killed himself with insane bolts.

Regardless, you should always have treasure tower shields in your side deck. So, failing to not have a shield is who's fault? Also, Storm does not have 100% power pip chance. Storm only gets 2500 health, not 2700. Unless their pet has health gift.

Storm also does not have the health of fire, over 1000 less than fire has. Fire has high damage, spells that damage and heal, DoT spells, Efreet.

Sorry, but I don't see how Fire loses to storm, except for severe luck and bad play on fire's part.


Well, well, well

I cant say that I am surprised. You're the FIRST person I knew would reply to my post. After all, you have been storm's number advocate, whining about how low their critical block is, how low their health is, and supposedly how everyone else is becoming more powerful than them. So, do you have any credibility at all? Wouldn't you be happy if storm critical was 500 as well as their block. Oh, their health could be raised to 4000 too, and, let's give them a zero DoT.

I don't over rate myself at all. I have been pvp a long time ago to know how good I am. I laugh when I see these post about pvp being "unbeatable". I am seriously thinking about joining one of those tournaments on central. But anyway, I KNOW it was pure luck. That's why I didn't come here to complain about it. This is the ONLY way a storm can ever hope to beat me. Spam bolt and bats, and hope you get lucky. It doesn't matter if I go fist or not.

My deck is set up in such a way that I do NOT need treasure tower shields. So when you say that I should always have tower treasures in my side deck, sorry, but I've been pvp enough to know how to set up my deck. Just because a storm got really lucky to beat me is not going to make change my strategy. Moreover, I am not a "shield spammer", though, I will shield myself.

The storm I fought DID have over 2700, I do not know how he did it (maybe it was his amulet, but he did have it). Please, fire DOES NOT have over 1000 health more than storm. Though, it can be possible, that is an exaggeration on your part to prove a point. As of now, my health is 3051. I can easily change it to 3143. However, if I wanna get 3500, like you suggest, then I'd have to take off my life amulet to use another amulet that give health (like the gargantuan amulet), which storm can also do.

Again, in ALL of your posts I read where you defend storm, you only state their con's, failing to mention their pro's. Like highest boost, by FAR. Highest critical, and the ONLY school in the game who can do over 2000 damage with just 2 pips (a critical bolts that hits a thousand). So If that isn't enough of a shield breaker, you might as well ask you for your version of hound!


If you read the posts, like the one Gtarhannon made, storms boost is being substancially lowered.

From 89% to 73%, that is a 16% drop! Storms health will be lowered, same as fire's health if you use a Life Mastery Amulet, so storm wont have 2700 as fire wont have 3500. People pick and choose the gear they want to wear. Fire can have over 200 critical attack, depending on their gear, but they have to give up things to get it. As Does storm.

Then you go and talk about and complain about storm's using WildBolt and Insane Bolt, using luck to win?

Well, if Storm was allowed to have more than a pet or amulet DoT spell, then it might be a lot easier to strategize rather than base wins upon luck and bolts.

So, why are you posting against a DoT, when you should be for it, so that storm wont use Bolts all the time.


You have no understanding of what a trade off is, do you? How is storm's power boost being lowered?
Again, if you compare ALL the schools, with the SAME gear (ww gear for instance) then storm's boost isn't lowered. It's still substantially high compared to the other schools.

Last night, I saw a storm wizard with 63% boost, now if I were to make the same observation as you without considering other factors, then I would say that KI lowered her boost by 26%, but guess what? Her critical was 210!!! She also had 173 critical block to fire and ice. Now, she CHOSE to give up some boost for critical rating and critical block. KI did NOT lower her boost. She trade power for critical. Of course, she told me she could get as much as 90% boost, but she would lose some critical.

Complaining?? what are you talking about? I was not complaining. I even said it. The reason I did not complain losing to that storm was because I KNEW it was all pure luck. It won't happen all the time. Just like, I recently lost to a balance who just used feint, curse, blade and then killed me. I used tower(only one came up, though my deck has 6), but he used a myth spell (forgot the name) to take it off. Although, I admired his strategy, I did NOT lose to him a second time when he tried to use the same strategy. So, I know that a storm will not always get lucky when fighting me, i.e my tower shields won't always hide, insane bolts will not always work for him, and his critical will not always work. Therefore, I do NOT have a problem with that. I love fighting bolts spammers. MOST of the time, they don't get lucky (against me), but when they do, I do NOT complain about it.

Now, as for the DoT. Storm wizards LOVE quick attack. So, giving them a DOT is not a guarantee that they will actually come up with a strategy besides spamming. It will just guarantee them that they won't face shields, meaning it'll be easier for them to kill.

NOTHING is easy in the arena. Contrary to what storm wizards seem to think (or want), a pvp match is not always going to be quick. I fought a girl once who kept spamming treasure tower shields every single turn. At point point, she must have had about 8 treasure towers on her. Well, of course, I knew how to deal with that (as a fire). I don't suggest that storm wizard wait that long until their opponent has a bunch on storm shields on them. Most transcended warlord storm wizards I have faced never let me had more than 2 storm shields on me. Now, if they CAN do it, why can' most storm wizards on here can't??

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
darthjt wrote:
Again, someone whom is not looking at the bigger picture.


Say it till the cows come home, it doesn't make it true. This is what you do every single time someone disagrees with you. You imply they are ignorant, stupid, or uneducated. Way to really make the case for your point of view.

darthjt wrote:
This is what my ice wears:
Frozen Breath Shroud
Shivering Breath Robes
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Elissa's Chill Band
and a Polar Cat that has Spell Proof 10, Spell Defy 5, Spritely, and Pain giver 6.

The new Stats are as follows:

4392 Health at level 68

38 Ice Damage Boost & 13 to all other schools
46% Resistance to All schools with 74% to Fire & 67% to Storm
13% accuracy boost to all schools with 20% Ice Accuracy Boost= 100%
120 Ice Critical
134 Ice Critical Block and 80 Critical block all
81% power pip chance
28% Incoming Healing


Finally, some meat to work with. You left off the boots though its easy to figure out that you must be wearing the "Blistering Breeze Footguards". I don't have time at the moment to do a detailed post. Therefore I'll mention a couple of the highlights and post again later. Comparing your config and substituting only the core gear for the more traditional Frostbit Hood, Celestian Snow Smock, and Frostbit Boots, you could have had 44% Ice Damage and 57% Global Resist. Therefore, you have sacrificed 13.6% of your damage capacity and 19.2% of your resist to every school but fire and storm. Though, if we were to use your standard for calculating the damage drop, we'd need to not factor your 6% pet damage and then re-evaluate it to a loss of 27.2%. See what I did there? This is why you need full disclosure in these arguments. At only 80, you also have what can be now be called a dismal global crit block score to every school but the one least likely to score a crit in the first place. Well done. Apparently, this isn't a significant tradeoff to you.

What HAS to be painfully obvious to you, is that you have dramatically opened yourself up to every school but storm and fire (and no one is complaining about fire for some reason) and to top it off, you are claiming that this is NOT a big tradeoff. Your assertion is ludicrous. What possible reason could you have to make this kind of tradeoff? The only possible reason that I can think of is that you find Storm (and I'm assuming, because you have never complained about how this could affect fire when the resist to them is clearly higher) so deadly as to merit opening yourself up substantially to 4 other schools. All of this through the prism of armor pierce, where one unshielded blow from any of the other four schools could likely critical (oh yeah, they can all get massive crit increases but I guess that isn't an advantage right?) while simultaneously reducing your 46% resist to 11%, and that's assuming they don't have any armor pierce on their gear.

darthjt wrote:
You can make a few trade offs giving more damage without losing much resistance, or get more crticial block. How is it that you don't see this gear is better for Ice than it is for any other school?


Because it isn't. There are different tradeoffs to be made for other schools. Quit focusing only on resistance. There are plenty of other stats to worry about.

darthjt wrote:
Also, the Elemental Blades on the hat, stack with normal elemental blades allowing for 2 35% boosts.
If you go with the Ice Blade Amulet, that gives an additional 45% damage boost blade with 155 extra health. Which this blade stacks with a treasure ice blade card for 2 45% Ice Blade Boosts.


Really? This is your argument? Single item card advantages? Now you're going to drop your life amulet for the ice blade amulet (I notice you didn't spell out that sacrifice) under threat of blading? Something EVERY other school can do now? Are you going to start dragging treasure cards out next and tell us how everyone's "proper" strategy works trying to justify your assertions about gear?

darthjt wrote:
Who has the health, and resistance to all schools to match this?


No one. And why would they? The other schools all have damage capacity to more than make up health and resistance differences. They are faced with different tradeoffs.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Ok, time to bring factual information back to the posts, so you can clearly and plainly see the differences I am referring to!

My storms Stats:

2511 Health

Damage Boost= 18 All & 75 Storm
Resistance = 40 All
Accuracy = 21 All & 34 Storm
141 Storm Critical
149 Fire/144 Ice/103 All Critical Block
85% Power Pip Chance
43% Incoming Healing Boost

Gear is:
SkyScream Hood
StormCaller's Medicine Cloak
Wintery Wildebeest's Clompers
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Aureate Band
And a pet with 10 spell proof, 5 spell defy, spritely, 6 pain giver!

Now, you can lose 13 accuracy, 20% power pip chance and use the Lifeforce Blade to give you an extra 30 critical and 30 critical block points.

However, if you use the crafted hat for storm:
Storm will Lose:
107 Health Giving storm 2404 Health
8 universal accuracy & 1 storm accuracy Giving storm 20 accuracy boost
8 universal resistance giving storm 50 Fire/50 Ice/32 All
4 incoming health boost
4 storm damage Giving storm 71% Storm boost with pet!

Now, let's look at Ice!

4216 Health

Damage Boost = 18 all & 43 Ice
Resistance = 67 Fire/67 Storm/46 All
Accuracy = 16 all & 21 Ice
120 Critical
81 Crtical Block All
85% Power Pip Chance
44% Incoming Heal

Gear Worn:
Frozen Breath Shroud (Crafted) Gives Elemental Blade that stacks!
Shivering Breath Robes Which gives 12 resist to fire & storm & 12 Global
Frostbit Boots
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Aureate Band
Pet that gives 10 spell proof, 5 spell defy, spritely, and pain giver 6

There are many options still available to ice, for more critical block, considering they can get their boots with a secondary school, giving 5 resist and 72 critical block, however, you lose 5 resist from frostbit boots.
You can also opt to use lifeforce blade instead of Sidhe staff.

The Robes as far as crafting are not bad, the boots are not bad, the hats are practically worthless, who wants to give up that much resistance? Except the Ice school only hat, it increases their critical and is worth it.

Ice can have 150 critical if desired, yes, storm could have 171 critical if desired, or more, but you have to weigh the losses from the gains and any way you look at it, storm loses more than Ice does, how can you argue this?

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Gtarhannon,

You assume that Ice, with 46 to 49% resistance to all schools and 67 to 70% resistance to fire and storm, will not shield at all.

The Pierce ability, only works on the first resistance it hits, being that of a tower shield, or Resistance.

Also, you are taking away substancial power from those attacks when using those Armor Piercing stats and lowing the chances of critical.

Also, in order to have armor pierce on gear, you must also lose resistance, same goes with those schools that you claim to say can get mega critical.

Sure they can, but they lose their resistance as well! Also, for that matter, Life, Death, and Balance all lose their 26% power pip chance from gear for minor accuracy, extra critical chance, loss of damage boost. So, not sure exactly what you point is on this issue.

I am not saying you are ignorant, never had, I just said you are not looking at the full picture, which is painfully obvious.

I understand wanting to defend Ice and it's new gear, but there has to be balance, you can't take more away from some schools and not all of them, that is bias and unfair!

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
darthjt wrote:
Ok, time to bring factual information back to the posts, so you can clearly and plainly see the differences I am referring to!


Yeah, because clearly that isn't what I've been doing.

Before I continue through your post section by section, lets keep a few things in mind:

1) This entire discussion relates exclusively to the implications of the new gear within PvP and should be viewed through that prism.
2) The tradeoffs for any particular choice must be weighed against the user's strategy to evaluate the value of the options.
3) According to the forums, there are very few storm in high level ranked PvP.
4) According to the forums, there is mostly fire, myth, and ice in high level ranked PvP.
5) Darthjt's strategy is perfectly valid but in no way is it the singular and only strategy for a given school.

darthjt wrote:
Gear is:
SkyScream Hood
StormCaller's Medicine Cloak
Wintery Wildebeest's Clompers
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Aureate Band
And a pet with 10 spell proof, 5 spell defy, spritely, 6 pain giver!


You're already using 2 pieces of crafted gear? *shock* Doesn't bode well for team Darthjt.

darthjt wrote:
Now, you can lose 13 accuracy, 20% power pip chance and use the Lifeforce Blade to give you an extra 30 critical and 30 critical block points.


And? The lifeforce blade hasn't been very useful to an ice since they started making wands with higher global crit block. Why would an ice (particularly a heavy resist one since that's what all of this is about) worry about bolstering the worst chance at critical in the game? A critical ONLY benefits an ice in damage and its extremely likely to be blocked anyway.

* For those that like debate, this is what they refer to as a "straw-man" argument whereby the arguer pretends that there are only two choices so that they can make the second one look ridiculous by comparison.

darthjt wrote:
However, if you use the crafted hat for storm:
Storm will Lose:
107 Health Giving storm 2404 Health
8 universal accuracy & 1 storm accuracy Giving storm 20 accuracy boost
8 universal resistance giving storm 50 Fire/50 Ice/32 All
4 incoming health boost
4 storm damage Giving storm 71% Storm boost with pet!


What? No mention of the 39 point gain in storm critical rating or the "Gives Elemental Blade that stacks!"? Well, of course not and why would you? Then it starts to seem like a potentially valid tradeoff when you consider that both fire and ice are considered to be plentiful in higher level pvp and both are known to use DoT attacks which are notoriously difficult to shield against.

darthjt wrote:
Now, let's look at Ice!


Sure. Why not?

darthjt wrote:
Gear Worn:
Frozen Breath Shroud (Crafted) Gives Elemental Blade that stacks!
Shivering Breath Robes Which gives 12 resist to fire & storm & 12 Global
Frostbit Boots
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Aureate Band
Pet that gives 10 spell proof, 5 spell defy, spritely, and pain giver 6


* For those following at home, Darthjt uses 2 pieces of crafted gear for his Storm and 2 pieces for his Ice. I also detect a distinct lack of "Elissa's Chill Band" that he has been complaining about. You recall right? The one he said made swapping out the hat for ice "not that big a deal"? I can't help but wonder why its absent from his config? *shock again*

darthjt wrote:
There are many options still available to ice, for more critical block, considering they can get their boots with a secondary school, giving 5 resist and 72 critical block, however, you lose 5 resist from frostbit boots.


And none of them involve significant tradeoffs for ice right? After all, losing 62 health, 5% global resist, 1% net accuracy (3% global accuracy), +5% incoming healing, and 2% ice damage for a real tactical gain of +52 global critical block on the boots isn't a big deal to an Ice right? Oh, and by the way, its 79 global critical block. However, I shouldn't expect you to start paying attention to details at this stage of the game now should I?

darthjt wrote:
You can also opt to use lifeforce blade instead of Sidhe staff.


There are only two choices of wand? What? Really? And here I thought I more realistically would have to give up +45 global critical block and a plethora of tactically advantageous life spells in order to get that +20% power pip chance and +13% global accuracy. Oh my, what is a non-conforming Ice wizard to do?

darthjt wrote:
The Robes as far as crafting are not bad, the boots are not bad, the hats are practically worthless, who wants to give up that much resistance? Except the Ice school only hat, it increases their critical and is worth it.


Yeah, cause the storm hat doesn't substantially raise the already very high storm critical at all or give a stackable blade while simultaneously increasing resistance to 2 of the most common high level PvP schools right? And hey, before waterworks no one survived against an ice because only they had global resist right? I mean, unless of course they PvP'd up to commander for the commander gear. Wait, how was it that they survived long enough to get that stuff? Oh, a strategy you say? Oh, well pardon me for assuming all one needed to worry about in PvP was gear selection.

When I PvP, I have no idea who I'm going to face. Therefore, I play the odds. In a very defensive strategy (such as the one I employ with my ice) it would be flatly ridiculous to amp up my resistance to storm (when I'm not even terribly likely to fight them) and fire while simultaneously reducing my resistance to everything else. With armor pierce, it would be potentially devastating to give 5 out of seven schools a better shot at killing me while simultaneously opening up a window for the remaining 2 to do the same through a school prism. Why would I create one of the few times that I can think of where it would be advantageous for a storm to be in second position?

A storm that layers his blades could potentially launch a storm elf, then follow with a big storm attack. Storm shield time right? Oh man, here it comes! They hit critical with a TC infallible up and wait a minute, is that a storm hound!? Didn't they do that in the wrong order? LOL. Glad I have those storm shields ready, I'll just go ahead and start casting those. Silly Storm. Wait, are those storm prisms!? Oh No! Well, now I'm in trouble on the middle turn of hound. Do I throw a myth shield and hope he prisms or do I throw a storm shield and possibly have him bypass my shield completely? I have to throw one because that stupid storm elf stripped off my storm shield. What is an ice wizard to do?

With full armor piercing stats that storm can bring my 70% storm resistance down to 35% (lower actually, but I'm not getting into that right now), oh but wait... You have 67% because I assume the tradeoffs for Elissa's Chill Band aren't worth it to you... so that would be 32%. See how a higher critical for storm could be useful here? You'd have a very good chance of crit while using a TC Infallible. That higher crit score could easily be seen as a good compensating factor for the lower damage.

darthjt wrote:
Ice can have 150 critical if desired, yes, storm could have 171 critical if desired, or more, but you have to weigh the losses from the gains and any way you look at it, storm loses more than Ice does, how can you argue this?


Everything has a tradeoff which can only be measured against your personal strategy. Not worth it to Darthjt doesn't mean not worth it to the Wizard101 community at large despite how much he may think of himself. Your assertions get even more ludicrous when you acknowledge that not everyone has the full set of waterworks gear, "perfect" pets, or even when you remove pets completely from the equation. In fact, I think we ought to do exactly that when evaluating GEAR because when I asserted that we should implement aggregate attribute caps back in June of 2010 with this quote:

gtarhannon wrote:
I believe that the best way to fix bolt and many other class exploits (both present and future), is to introduce gear caps on at least accuracy and resist. Combine that with the original version of bolt but with only one modification. If you remove the ability to apply enchantment cards to it, then I think you've got a fair and equitable fix.


you said and I quote:

darthjt wrote:
But, what I dont agree with, is your attributes cap. People spend a lot of time and money, to make pets and to get them the talents that they want them to have. It is not easy to get a pet with pain giver, spell proof, spell defy and spritely. Now, you want to take away all their hard effort to make that pet?


And that is, after all, where the REAL exploit is here right? The fact that you have that extra 15% global resistance sitting on that perfect pet of yours is what really unbalances (if it even still does with the advent of armor pierce) the gear right? And even at that, only to storm (supposedly). No, I think storm is fine and doesn't really need any more DoT options (though I am fine with storm elf TC drops from gardening) even in light of the Ice gear combinations you seem to be asserting that everyone will use.

Defender
Feb 06, 2010
118
gtarhannon wrote:
darthjt wrote:
Again, someone whom is not looking at the bigger picture.


Say it till the cows come home, it doesn't make it true. This is what you do every single time someone disagrees with you. You imply they are ignorant, stupid, or uneducated. Way to really make the case for your point of view.



Yep, he did the same thing to me on a different thread. I commented that I didn't want Storm to have a DoT spell. Late, Darthjt replied that since I didn't have a Storm, my opinion doesn't matter.

I have a level 68 Storm Wizard whom I pvp on.

Assuming gets you nowhere Darthjt.

Explorer
May 12, 2010
77
gtarhannon wrote:
darthjt wrote:
Ok, time to bring factual information back to the posts, so you can clearly and plainly see the differences I am referring to!


Yeah, because clearly that isn't what I've been doing.

Before I continue through your post section by section, lets keep a few things in mind:

1) This entire discussion relates exclusively to the implications of the new gear within PvP and should be viewed through that prism.
2) The tradeoffs for any particular choice must be weighed against the user's strategy to evaluate the value of the options.
3) According to the forums, there are very few storm in high level ranked PvP.
4) According to the forums, there is mostly fire, myth, and ice in high level ranked PvP.
5) Darthjt's strategy is perfectly valid but in no way is it the singular and only strategy for a given school.

darthjt wrote:
Gear is:
SkyScream Hood
StormCaller's Medicine Cloak
Wintery Wildebeest's Clompers
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Aureate Band
And a pet with 10 spell proof, 5 spell defy, spritely, 6 pain giver!


You're already using 2 pieces of crafted gear? *shock* Doesn't bode well for team Darthjt.

darthjt wrote:
Now, you can lose 13 accuracy, 20% power pip chance and use the Lifeforce Blade to give you an extra 30 critical and 30 critical block points.


And? The lifeforce blade hasn't been very useful to an ice since they started making wands with higher global crit block. Why would an ice (particularly a heavy resist one since that's what all of this is about) worry about bolstering the worst chance at critical in the game? A critical ONLY benefits an ice in damage and its extremely likely to be blocked anyway.

darthjt wrote:
However, if you use the crafted hat for storm:
Storm will Lose:
107 Health Giving storm 2404 Health
8 universal accuracy & 1 storm accuracy Giving storm 20 accuracy boost
8 universal resistance giving storm 50 Fire/50 Ice/32 All
4 incoming health boost
4 storm damage Giving storm 71% Storm boost with pet!


What? No mention of the 39 point gain in storm critical rating or the "Gives Elemental Blade that stacks!"? Well, of course not and why would you? Then it starts to seem like a potentially valid tradeoff when you consider that both fire and ice are considered to be plentiful in higher level pvp and both are known to use DoT attacks which are notoriously difficult to shield against.

darthjt wrote:
Now, let's look at Ice!


Sure. Why not?

darthjt wrote:
Gear Worn:
Frozen Breath Shroud (Crafted) Gives Elemental Blade that stacks!
Shivering Breath Robes Which gives 12 resist to fire & storm & 12 Global
Frostbit Boots
Sidhe Staff
Olyphant's Storied Scimitar
Life Mastery Amulet
Aureate Band
Pet that gives 10 spell proof, 5 spell defy, spritely, and pain giver 6


* For those following at home, Darthjt uses 2 pieces of crafted gear for his Storm and 2 pieces for his Ice. I also detect a distinct lack of "Elissa's Chill Band" that he has been complaining about. You recall right? The one he said made swapping out the hat for ice "not that big a deal"? I can't help but wonder why its absent from his config? *shock again*

darthjt wrote:
There are many options still available to ice, for more critical block, considering they can get their boots with a secondary school, giving 5 resist and 72 critical block, however, you lose 5 resist from frostbit boots.


And none of them involve significant tradeoffs for ice right? After all, losing 62 health, 5% global resist, 1% net accuracy (3% global accuracy), +5% incoming healing, and 2% ice damage for a real tactical gain of +52 global critical block on the boots isn't a big deal to an Ice right? Oh, and by the way, its 79 global critical block. However, I shouldn't expect you to start paying attention to details at this stage of the game now should I?

darthjt wrote:
You can also opt to use lifeforce blade instead of Sidhe staff.


There are only two choices of wand? What? Really? And here I thought I more realistically would have to give up +45 global critical block and a plethora of tactically advantageous life spells in order to get that +20% power pip chance and +13% global accuracy. Oh my, what is a non-conforming Ice wizard to do?

darthjt wrote:
The Robes as far as crafting are not bad, the boots are not bad, the hats are practically worthless, who wants to give up that much resistance? Except the Ice school only hat, it increases their critical and is worth it.


Yeah, cause the storm hat doesn't substantially raise the already very high storm critical at all or give a stackable blade while simultaneously increasing resistance to 2 of the most common high level PvP schools right? And hey, before waterworks no one survived against an ice because only they had global resist right? I mean, unless of course they PvP'd up to commander for the commander gear. Wait, how was it that they survived long enough to get that stuff? Oh, a strategy you say? Oh, well pardon me for assuming all one needed to worry about in PvP was gear selection.

When I PvP, I have no idea who I'm going to face. Therefore, I play the odds. In a very defensive strategy (such as the one I employ with my ice) it would be flatly ridiculous to amp up my resistance to storm (when I'm not even terribly likely to fight them) and fire while simultaneously reducing my resistance to everything else. With armor pierce, it would be potentially devastating to give 5 out of seven schools a better shot at killing me while simultaneously opening up a window for the remaining 2 to do the same through a school prism. Why would I create one of the few times that I can think of where it would be advantageous for a storm to be in second position?

A storm that layers his blades could potentially launch a storm elf, then follow with a big storm attack. Storm shield time right? Oh man, here it comes! They hit critical with a TC infallible up and wait a minute, is that a storm hound!? Didn't they do that in the wrong order? LOL. Glad I have those storm shields ready, I'll just go ahead and start casting those. Silly Storm. Wait, are those storm prisms!? Oh No! Well, now I'm in trouble on the middle turn of hound. Do I throw a myth shield and hope he prisms or do I throw a storm shield and possibly have him bypass my shield completely? I have to throw one because that stupid storm elf stripped off my storm shield. What is an ice wizard to do?

With full armor piercing stats that storm can bring my 70% storm resistance down to 35% (lower actually, but I'm not getting into that right now), oh but wait... You have 67% because I assume the tradeoffs for Elissa's Chill Band aren't worth it to you... so that would be 32%. See how a higher critical for storm could be useful here? You'd have a very good chance of crit while using a TC Infallible. That higher crit score could easily be seen as a good compensating factor for the lower damage.

And that is, after all, where the REAL exploit is here right? The fact that you have that extra 15% global resistance sitting on that perfect pet of yours is what really unbalances (if it even still does with the advent of armor pierce) the gear right? And even at that, only to storm (supposedly). No, I think storm is fine and doesn't really need any more DoT options (though I am fine with storm elf TC drops from gardening) even in light of the Ice gear combinations you seem to be asserting that everyone will use.


You seem to be missing Darthjt's point entirely Gtarhannon and taking this topic entirely off base.

This is not supposed to be a topic about Gear, which all gear has trade offs.

However, Darth's point was that the Ice Crafted Robe Does not Take away, in fact gives more than any other schools robe! Is this not a fact?

You act like he fails to mention things, but I do believe it is impossible for anyone to cover every single possible option in gear. This does not change the fact that Ice gear, does not take more than it gives when it comes crafted gear vs Waterworks gear!

Apparently, you have never heard of Triage for that 1 storm hound that storm may have?

Oh, and look what storm has to give up to have Armor Pierce!

You keep going around, but you are not stating specific facts.

As far as pets go, any school and anyone can have a pet with the talents they want, it is not school specific, so when you are adding and subtracting those values, you can do that to all schools, not just storm!