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We need dispel shields, and fix stun spamming

2
AuthorMessage
Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
PvP King on Jul 30, 2015 wrote:
Since the largest complaint about dispel spamming is going 2nd, I believe that talking about addressing the first turn advantage won't be considered "hijacking a post," so I'll continue on with this discussion. Though I agree that going second for a newer or less advanced player is difficult, I still believe that the turn system was designed right in Wizard101, it's just the meta we're in that kills it. Back in the "Golden Age" through Azteca the first turn advantage wasn't as potent, as many people could react to things, and critical block percentages were more than often higher than critical percentages. Not every single turn mattered, a stun usually didn't mean you're dead, and Black Mantles didn't decide the fate of the match on the last turn. Back then, you could destroy blades for a high pip cost, heal off attacks, take your time on removing debuffs, and you basically had time to take control.

This meta, you have almost none of that. Not many people in Exalted PvP will try to control the match, only 2 schools carry reliable heals, if you're second, an unexpected critical ruins the entire match, and you're forced to make the most out of all your attacks. This is what max level PvP has come to. Earlier when people could heal without worrying about losing 9% block rating, there was room for mistakes and time for recovery. If KI simply brings this back, which it's needed to for a very long time, the first turn advantage would be fair and the player going second could slowly take control of the match and then win.
PvP King,

I agree, I think that dispels and the first turn advantage are tied together as far as a problem.

I Have several issues with your reply, first being the Golden age period. Since that is a matter of pure opinion, I will leave it at that. On the other hand, that W101 designed the first turn advantage with forethought and that it’s right for this game, no not a chance.
You state it yourself… “if you're second, an unexpected critical ruins the entire match, and you're forced to make the most out of all your attacks. This is what max level PvP has come to.”
If your Second, why should that make that much of a difference in any game? If your second and you get hit with a massive damage OT spell, and stunned the next, the odds are you have lost. From the moment that Fire’s 130 per pip turn doggie got released, being second was an issue. When Judge got released, second was an issue. Going second has always been an issue, and a problem in this game. When Critical was released, being second was an issue. Not to mention when the King Artorius spells were released, think of Myth’s huge backload. Yes, the problem has gotten far worst in Level 100, but the problem has always been there.
Take two football teams and put blinders on just one team. Now give the ball to the team without blinders on. That is exactly what you have in this game. How can you say that is right, to any degree?

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
PvP King on Jul 28, 2015 wrote:
Any turn based game still has one player going first. Tic tac toe, for example, has one player reacting to the opponent's move right after the opponent makes their move. One player is still going first. In games like Pokemon, one Pokemon is going first and the other one is blind to the opponent's moves. KI decided that Wizard101 will use the same play style and have the player going 2nd to predict the opponent's moves rather than knowing what's going on. Just because some players feel like it isn't right, they won't change how the game entirely functions.
PvP King,

Here is yet another great example, you talk about Tic Tac Toe. In Tic Tac Toe the player going first
will always win, or at best the second player could draw a tie. In Tic Tac Toe, the player going first will always know that they will win or draw, they will never lose. I never played Pokémon, so I can't comment on that.
I did play Yu-Gi-Oh on a competitive level, and in that you are not locked down like you are in this game.

If KI decided that Wizard101 should have a player that is blind through the entire match, that is wrong.
If one player doesn't have to worry about driving their spells into -70 shields or being displelled, that is
wrong. If one players has a huge advantage over the other, that is a problem. The problem is, in this
game that problem is amplified, and as you level up it's amplified more and more.

No way to look at this, as it's a good thing, it's simply not.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
Veracity8 on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
PvP King,

Here is yet another great example, you talk about Tic Tac Toe. In Tic Tac Toe the player going first
will always win, or at best the second player could draw a tie. In Tic Tac Toe, the player going first will always know that they will win or draw, they will never lose. I never played Pokémon, so I can't comment on that.
I did play Yu-Gi-Oh on a competitive level, and in that you are not locked down like you are in this game.

If KI decided that Wizard101 should have a player that is blind through the entire match, that is wrong.
If one player doesn't have to worry about driving their spells into -70 shields or being displelled, that is
wrong. If one players has a huge advantage over the other, that is a problem. The problem is, in this
game that problem is amplified, and as you level up it's amplified more and more.

No way to look at this, as it's a good thing, it's simply not.
Tic tac toe was an example I used because even if the player going second was able to choose their own spell directly after the player going first chooses their spell, it would just make schools like Fire or Balance overpowered even from second. For schools like Myth, going first is all they've got against a Fire wizard. That's it. When both players are seeing what's going on, that means you have to find your cards right away, and the cards that you draw each turn will matter a whole lot more.

If you're not seeing what I mean, picture this. Say I'm against a Fire wizard and I use Elemental Shield. Their move? Fire Beetle. Say I used another one, they Fire Beetle again knowing I'll shield. Now, you're officially forced to shield or you die regardless of the options given from going first, as a Fire From Above with 2 different Fire Traps will kill anybody except an Ice wizard.

In lower level PvP where Entangles matter, anybody will just be able to use a spell to take the dispel off right away and avoid all threat from the enemy. You Infection, the player going second uses Sprite right away. If PvP was that way, the winner of each match would rely solely on who carries more versions of that specific card. Especially since Reshuffle is limited to a 1x use only, I don't see this being a fun play style to be in.

A more suitable thing to do is to prepare going second. If you think somebody will DoT, try to predict when to use Triage. Prediction is key to what makes a fun game and match. Even from first, one will get a little hesitant whether it's the right time to attack or not because the player going second could have a chance to attack the same turn you do, and probably hit you harder. Carrying Stun Block, a satisfactory amount of 0 pip utility and lower pip spells is a step in the right direction to getting better at playing from second, and it goes on a lot more from there.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
PvP King on Aug 1, 2015 wrote:
Tic tac toe was an example I used because even if the player going second was able to choose their own spell directly after the player going first chooses their spell, it would just make schools like Fire or Balance overpowered even from second. For schools like Myth, going first is all they've got against a Fire wizard. That's it. When both players are seeing what's going on, that means you have to find your cards right away, and the cards that you draw each turn will matter a whole lot more.

If you're not seeing what I mean, picture this. Say I'm against a Fire wizard and I use Elemental Shield. Their move? Fire Beetle. Say I used another one, they Fire Beetle again knowing I'll shield. Now, you're officially forced to shield or you die regardless of the options given from going first, as a Fire From Above with 2 different Fire Traps will kill anybody except an Ice wizard.

In lower level PvP where Entangles matter, anybody will just be able to use a spell to take the dispel off right away and avoid all threat from the enemy. You Infection, the player going second uses Sprite right away. If PvP was that way, the winner of each match would rely solely on who carries more versions of that specific card. Especially since Reshuffle is limited to a 1x use only, I don't see this being a fun play style to be in.

A more suitable thing to do is to prepare going second. If you think somebody will DoT, try to predict when to use Triage. Prediction is key to what makes a fun game and match. Even from first, one will get a little hesitant whether it's the right time to attack or not because the player going second could have a chance to attack the same turn you do, and probably hit you harder. Carrying Stun Block, a satisfactory amount of 0 pip utility and lower pip spells is a step in the right direction to getting better at playing from second, and it goes on a lot more from there.
Fire and Balance, they are already top tier schools. Fire, Life and Balance have a chance first or second. The other four schools do not, hence the problem with the first turn advantage. From here on, it will only get worst.
Why would I not put up a fire shield when being trapped by a fire?
I see your point on each player being able to respond, but my point is that is exactly how it should be. Force the player to gain the skills required to win fairly. Not have one player dominate, because the other is blind can’t respond.
In Low level, you have the same problem, being first you can dominate. What your saying to me is, “Hey, no one will be able to dominate the match, and that’s not fun”. I see it as, if no one can dominate the match, it will take more skill to win the match. Ok, the cards you hold and play will have to be the correct cards. Either way, I see it as a much better option, than being blind the entire match. Those without a good strategy will be unable to kill the opponent. Skillsets will become critical if the first turn advantage will removed. The player spamming dispels will quickly find that timing is now something they have to understand. The spammer will be put into a position of realizing that they have to do more than just spam to win.

Your last paragraph is where we really disagree, I shouldn’t have to predict what is going to happen before I select my spell. I should be predicting what strategy the person is going to use, not whether I am going to drive my spell into a shield. Not if I am going to heal into an infection. Not if I am going to cast the game winner into a bad juju. Everyone in the game sets up their deck for second, that is a given. Just about everyone knows how to setup their deck, segregate it, have a deck that will cover most types of fights. Insight, guessing, predicting, deck strategy, etc, is all part of the game. It should not be that I enter a fight, and am blind for the entire fight.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
Veracity8 on Aug 3, 2015 wrote:
Fire and Balance, they are already top tier schools. Fire, Life and Balance have a chance first or second. The other four schools do not, hence the problem with the first turn advantage. From here on, it will only get worst.
Why would I not put up a fire shield when being trapped by a fire?
I see your point on each player being able to respond, but my point is that is exactly how it should be. Force the player to gain the skills required to win fairly. Not have one player dominate, because the other is blind can’t respond.
In Low level, you have the same problem, being first you can dominate. What your saying to me is, “Hey, no one will be able to dominate the match, and that’s not fun”. I see it as, if no one can dominate the match, it will take more skill to win the match. Ok, the cards you hold and play will have to be the correct cards. Either way, I see it as a much better option, than being blind the entire match. Those without a good strategy will be unable to kill the opponent. Skillsets will become critical if the first turn advantage will removed. The player spamming dispels will quickly find that timing is now something they have to understand. The spammer will be put into a position of realizing that they have to do more than just spam to win.

Your last paragraph is where we really disagree, I shouldn’t have to predict what is going to happen before I select my spell. I should be predicting what strategy the person is going to use, not whether I am going to drive my spell into a shield. Not if I am going to heal into an infection. Not if I am going to cast the game winner into a bad juju. Everyone in the game sets up their deck for second, that is a given. Just about everyone knows how to setup their deck, segregate it, have a deck that will cover most types of fights. Insight, guessing, predicting, deck strategy, etc, is all part of the game. It should not be that I enter a fight, and am blind for the entire fight.
Yes, Fire and Balance are top tier schools, but the problem is that in your method, technically both players will be going "first" and able to respond immediately. The problem with this, is that damage in general, is too high. Say I pack 4 Thermic Shields to fight Fire and Ice wizards. Now, let's say I use one Thermic Shield. Immediately, the Fire wizard will know to Fire Beetle. I could Thermic Shield again, but the Fire wizard will use a stacking Fire Beetle this time to remove the shield. At this point, the Fire's FFA will be doing over 5500 damage unshielded (1575*2.05*1.35*1.35=5881 damage). From here on, since the Fire wizard knows exactly when I shield or not, I cannot hit the Fire anymore or I'm dead, because the Fire will FFA as soon as I leave myself open. This is even more of a reality for schools like Storm and Myth that have no spells that leave defensive aftereffects to even be able to attack the Fire wizard.

Already, any good Fire has a guaranteed victory rate against Myth, Storm, Death, or Ice wizard from first. If the Fire wizard could react right away even from second, Fire will never lose to these schools ever. For any low tier school, going first is literally the only thing they have against a school like Fire, Life, or Balance. If Shadow Enhanced Spells were banned from PvP and there was a new non-jade gear stat that reduced armor pierce, then yes, your immediate reaction idea could work, but that isn't a realistic game fix for now.

Explorer
Mar 29, 2010
79
Maybe zero pips is not a good idea, how about 2 pips? That way it costs pips just like dispels do. As far as which school it would be long to, just make a version of it to each school so it costs the same regardless of the school you belong to.

And the person going second would start with a single dispel shield, not two like the trained spell would give.

Mastermind
Nov 19, 2014
365
MrFlin t on Jul 24, 2015 wrote:
'Beat them to it'?? How does a person going second 'beat' the player going first exactly? And of course I'm mainly referring to same school dispel spamming, we all know it's not worth the pips (usually) if it's not your school and you don't have a mastery amulet on.

Again, dispels are like stuns, only more powerful especially if going first. We need dispel shields.
immunity? use shadow shrike & use high tc single shield (make about to break them) school resist more then 127 resist then be immune infallible (take 15 off shadow shrike don't use infallible) better add shield make it more to defense (even ice amulet able cast a creep Abominable Weaver Spell

that want I going to do with mine death wizard (see if work) good resist pet (4 time immunity to 4 school) max 14 to 15 by 4 time to 4 school clued universe

Explorer
Mar 29, 2010
79
Since dispels cost pips, I agree dispel shields should cost pips. Two pips for two dispel shields seems more balanced. As far as what school, each school should have access to dispel shields. Should they be school specific? I'm open to that discussion.

I think the person going second in pvp should receive one dispel shield to start, again maybe for their own school, or a special universal one. I'm open for that discussion as well.

Mastermind
Nov 19, 2014
365
MrFlin t on Jul 27, 2015 wrote:
Sorry but you're not living in reality. I'm not going to argue when you're pretending; I know how the game mechanics work and currently what's being done in pvp. You can write all you want to try to show how smart you are, but anyone reading these posts knows what I'm talking about.

If you don't think dispels are a problem, fine. I do, and so do the vast majority of people TRYING to play this game.

Just like if you don't think 122% resist is a problem, fine.

Just like if you don't think guardian spirit is a problem, fine.

Just like if you don't think bad juju (even if they made it non-enchantable) or Mana Burn is a problem, fine.

But most people do, and they go walking with their money. PVP is in the worst state it has ever been in for both balance and player participation. If you don't believe that, fine.

Dispel shields would help make not going first not quite so daunting.

I'd like KI to show us what percentage of wins are from people going first; I bet it's over 80%. That's a problem. If you don't care, fine.

"So because I don't want to be absolutely defenseless when a Balance wizard uses a Shrike or when somebody decides to go offensive and I want to counter to be able to survive, I'm a dispel spammer?"

No one ever said anything like this, this is a great example of what you're doing. And you continue to ignore the whole first-vs-second element of the game.

If you think 6 hour matches is okay, fine. But for people with real-world responsibilities, it is not.
dispel shield will work beside dispel shield be useful balance

there a dispel spammer vs balance & balance

use dispel shield (try spam dispel) able can't dispel you have dispel shield?

useful ice able use life spell to heal when use immunity also help block dispel from spam shield keep people from dispelling shield say thing for prims able remove convert (always carry allot cleanse ward using immunity) incase they convert make trap so, use more resist jewel to opposite school when immune to others school!

example:
immune to (use more resist jewel to )
immune to (use more resist jewel to )
immune to (use more resist jewel to )
immune to (use more resist jewel to )
immune to (use more resist jewel to )
immune to (use more resist jewel to )
immune to (use more resist jewel to or or or also )
immune to (use more resist jewel to or )

Mastermind
Nov 19, 2014
365
MrFlin t on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
Since dispels cost pips, I agree dispel shields should cost pips. Two pips for two dispel shields seems more balanced. As far as what school, each school should have access to dispel shields. Should they be school specific? I'm open to that discussion.

I think the person going second in pvp should receive one dispel shield to start, again maybe for their own school, or a special universal one. I'm open for that discussion as well.
dispel shield won't cost pips because shield (if it was double pips cost be more the 2 pips maybe 3 pips) already have double dispel from terror hoard pack no pvp (there cost 3 pips as for tc) did had them real training spell then able use elucidate on them! double dispel not very useful in darkmoor least go for spear shield (be more useful) block more incoming armor pierce unless Kingsisle make (defense shadow shrike or fix gear make us TRAIN HEAVY ARMOR (would help tanking) heavy armor more better then resist have bad resist or either good resist (Heavy Armor Protect more then your resist) KI did make heavy armor (be useful) vs people use high armor pierce)

armor pierce not everything using to win pvp (happen vs boss) just make kingsisle trap more of talent idea make boss immune (Non-talent) use to with immune stun, immune beguile? about immune bad juju or immune armor pierce or immune to shadow magic?

one thing don't trust Wysteria (because Know Randolf Spellshine is up to something) be funny make Randolf Spellshine as next Ultra One Shot Guardian) could be risky with shadow magic spell too (make him immune to ravenwood shadow enhanced spell) then go Wysteria Class train for Boost to own class from Wysteria Class?

Explorer
Feb 23, 2012
69
ya i just want to play and don't worrying have to be dispelled,people would not like if i elucidated dispels and actually trained them but i don't i am a fair player. one dispel and something can go absoulutely wrong.

Survivor
Dec 30, 2009
44
They definitely need to do something about dispel spamming, whether it's dispel shields, making them x1 or non-cloakable... team PvP has pretty much dried up because of this. They could also make dispels No PvP.

Survivor
Dec 30, 2009
44
Veracity8 on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
PvP King,

I agree, I think that dispels and the first turn advantage are tied together as far as a problem.

I Have several issues with your reply, first being the Golden age period. Since that is a matter of pure opinion, I will leave it at that. On the other hand, that W101 designed the first turn advantage with forethought and that it’s right for this game, no not a chance.
You state it yourself… “if you're second, an unexpected critical ruins the entire match, and you're forced to make the most out of all your attacks. This is what max level PvP has come to.”
If your Second, why should that make that much of a difference in any game? If your second and you get hit with a massive damage OT spell, and stunned the next, the odds are you have lost. From the moment that Fire’s 130 per pip turn doggie got released, being second was an issue. When Judge got released, second was an issue. Going second has always been an issue, and a problem in this game. When Critical was released, being second was an issue. Not to mention when the King Artorius spells were released, think of Myth’s huge backload. Yes, the problem has gotten far worst in Level 100, but the problem has always been there.
Take two football teams and put blinders on just one team. Now give the ball to the team without blinders on. That is exactly what you have in this game. How can you say that is right, to any degree?
Actually, the game was designed for PvE and PvP was added later. Also, it was designed for what was going on at Level 50 not for Criticals or Pierce. All of that was added later and possibly does not jive with what the original designers balanced for. The game went to Level 50. The original designers balanced the game for Level 50.

Then came all the other stuff: the Critical, shadow, Pierce. Was the game changed in order to be balanced for that? Not really.

Survivor
Jan 02, 2012
11
I'd prefer that the dispel block is only block the next one and when they cast a dispel, you get a dispel block.

Survivor
Dec 30, 2009
44
Shadowblader21 on Oct 2, 2015 wrote:
I'd prefer that the dispel block is only block the next one and when they cast a dispel, you get a dispel block.
Dispel spam also causes glitches during the match. I just uploaded a dispel spam video and you can see how the dispels are cloaked and multiplied. The cloaks don't work after a while because you can see that it is a dispel, and also the health glitches are caused by the cloaked dispels.

That's one solution. The others besides dispel block is:

1. Increasing pips to 4 (limiting cast rate)
2. Make dispels x1 (limiting use)
3. Create a spell to wipe out all negative charms, similar to an Enfeeble, but for yourself to clear out any negative charms on yourself. (Creating a defense to dispel spam)
4. Make dispels non-cloakable so that can't be multipled. The basic issue is that people can keep on multiplying dispels through cloak while Cleanse Charm can't be multiplied and most of the time, the Cleanse Charm is a TC anyway. They do spam Storm dispel too. Anyway, the gist of that is that the spammer keeps on getting more and more dispels whereas the non-spammer does not get more Cleanse Charms.
5. Make dispels No PvP (limiting use)
6. Fix the Enchantment glitch so that cards can't be multiplied with Reshuffle

To fix chain stun, because it still happens, give everyone in 1v1 and PvE at least 2 stun shields when hit by a stun spell.

Explorer
Oct 23, 2011
81
I disagree. When I go second (most of the time lol) on my grandmaster ice, the only way I can assure my opponent wont shield when I lord of winter is to ice dispel him then attack. I would of stun (which prevents weakness and tower shield and set shield) but stun blocks exist. If KingsIsle made dispel shields, then I'd quit grandmaster ice pvp. No, I don't want to blade up for frostbite since everyone carry triage.

Survivor
Dec 30, 2014
6
So I'm a grand and I carry 6 dispels, 2 ice, 2 myth, 2 balance. I'm a balance with a myth mastery so that's why I have myth dispels and I have ice because 5basically over 50% of the players at grand and above 1k rank are ice. Anyway I think dispel shields wouldn't be that bad, but they would need to be balanced, and a way to do so I think would to have a dispel shield for each school that way you can save a training point but if you want to get other school dispel shields you couldn't stack them, and considering that stuns cost 0 pips ( not including myth spells) it makes sense that you get 2 stun shields from stun block, so I think it would make sense if you get 1 dispel shield since dispels cost 2 pips

Champion
May 10, 2013
498
That's why we carry cleanses.
If your storm...
That's your problem not mine

Champion
May 10, 2013
498
Alex watersinger on Oct 11, 2015 wrote:
I disagree. When I go second (most of the time lol) on my grandmaster ice, the only way I can assure my opponent wont shield when I lord of winter is to ice dispel him then attack. I would of stun (which prevents weakness and tower shield and set shield) but stun blocks exist. If KingsIsle made dispel shields, then I'd quit grandmaster ice pvp. No, I don't want to blade up for frostbite since everyone carry triage.
Bro, this about Exalted PVP.
Exalted PvP carries a lotta dispels.
Whether its annoying Balances when they Mana Burn,
or to make that Ice lose their Shadow Pip when they Weaver.

Explorer
Oct 23, 2011
81
PlayHard101 on Oct 15, 2015 wrote:
Bro, this about Exalted PVP.
Exalted PvP carries a lotta dispels.
Whether its annoying Balances when they Mana Burn,
or to make that Ice lose their Shadow Pip when they Weaver.
Uh some comments are about max PvP but not the original post.

Survivor
Jan 10, 2010
5
I disagree. I think dispel shields should not be made. Just counter the dispels with your own dispels, and pack low pip spells to remove the dispels and not fall for the same trick twice.

2