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It's been at least 3 1/2 years

AuthorMessage
Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
818
And one of the biggest problems in the arena has yet to be fixed, despite a pretty simple one existing.
Yes, I'm talking about First Turn Advantage, the incredibly broken concept that the wizard going first should be able to see everything that the second wizard does, but the second wizard does not get to see the first wizard's action. Bad Juju/dispel/some other nasty debuff from second is catastrophic, the same from first is a minor delay. I'm well aware that someone has to act first and there's always going to be randomness, but a) that doesn't mean they should have this kind of advantage, and b) Most of the randomness is controllable, this is not. I can control how many criticals I get or block by adjusting my gear, I can control how likely I am to fizzle with more accuracy like Infallible or pierce enchants. I cannot control first position, and moreover, it has a much greater effect. Within a battle, randomness can bite both ways; i.e. your critical Efreet might get healed off by a critical Satyr. First turn advantage is permanent for the battle.

The simple solution is to make PvP like Pirate101. Have one wizard choose spells, and then the other. If match length is a concern, shorten the timer to 20 seconds each. First turn will still have a minor advantage, but only in being able to act first. That can be overcome easily. If that's too difficult, then buff the second player MASSIVELY. Maybe add a 1000 absorb and stun the player going first twice (to remove the shield)?

Explorer
Jun 13, 2009
92
I agree it needs to change, I think of going second as basically a death sentence because who ever goes first in pvp usually wins especially in this age of who can get the first shadow pip. First position can counter EVERYTHING which makes it extremely difficult to get any hit on them. It's unbalanced even with the extra added pips to the player who goes second, they really don't help very much. I believe that anyone who can actually win from going second has true skill in my book.

Mastermind
Nov 19, 2014
365
I would do fix pvp

add dice roll and 7 dice and 1 die to each of there school

fire dice by: red and school of:
ice dice by: light blue school of:
storm dice by: purple school of:
myth dice by: yellow school of:
life dice by: green school of:
death dice by: white school of:
balance dice by: tans school of:

or second through

add a rank pvp world (only for wizard they are: Private, Corporal, Sergeant, Veteran) Rank Pvp World (Target Dungeon) award of Shadow Coin (buy: new Shadow Magic Stuff) any level

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
818
JustinFrostHunter on Dec 22, 2015 wrote:
I would do fix pvp

add dice roll and 7 dice and 1 die to each of there school

fire dice by: red and school of:
ice dice by: light blue school of:
storm dice by: purple school of:
myth dice by: yellow school of:
life dice by: green school of:
death dice by: white school of:
balance dice by: tans school of:

or second through

add a rank pvp world (only for wizard they are: Private, Corporal, Sergeant, Veteran) Rank Pvp World (Target Dungeon) award of Shadow Coin (buy: new Shadow Magic Stuff) any level
I have no idea what you are talking about and I do not see how that would fix anything at all; if anything it would make it worse since randomness is generally bad.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
198
I'm in complete agreeance with you, but let me add to your suggestion.

You pointed out that games would take longer because one player has to wait while the other chooses their move instead of both players choosing at the same time.

In all other card games that take turns you still have your hand in front of you while your opponent is deciding their turn. The same thing can be done in Wizard101 if the format was changed to taking turns.

While you opponent is choosing you can still see your cards giving you time to think though your situation. During your opponents turn you will be able to discard, draw TC's and enchant to keep yourself busy but you won't be able to choose your move until it is you turn(cannot cast a spell or pass). When it is your turn your opponent will be in the same situation.

Since you used some of your opponents turn sorting your hand you won't need the full 30 seconds to pick your move. I agree that 20 seconds would be a good amount time. Something else players would realise is that the faster they choose their move the less time their opponent has to work their cards. An incentive to play fast and would actually speed up the game, but payers will still have time to use if they need it.
The only exception to this would be the player taking the first turn should get a full 30 seconds to choose for that turn only as they have not yet had a chance to work their cards.

Both players cards will be removed form the screen when a spell has been chosen for animation to play.

Just to be clear and avoid confusion. You will not draw extra cards from you deck at the begging of your turn even though you discarded some during your opponents turn. You will still only draw cards "after" choosing your own move.

If this new system is implemented PvE should be left as it is. There won't be time to work your cards in your opponents turn because AI chooses instantly. The PvE timer should be left at 30 seconds.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
198
You also mentioned that even with this new system there will still have to be a player that takes the first turn, which puts their opponent at a disadvantage, making them a turn behind at the begging of their turn. This is something that cannot be avoided in a turn based game. Someone will always have to take the first turn. However this doesn't mean there isn't a way to nutralise this problem.

Here is my suggestion:
The Yu-Gi-Oh card game has a really good way of solving this problem and Wizard101 could do something similar. Rather than compensate the player going second to neutralise their disadvantage they instead take the advantage away from the player taking the first turn so that compensation is not needed.

This is how they do it. The player taking the first turn is crippled for that turn only. They are able to summon monsters to defend themselves but cannot attack for only that turn as their opponent has not yet played a turn and hasn't yet had a chance to defend themselves. Player1 still gets to play a turn but it is not a full turn as they would normally be played. It's more like a half turn. This means at the start of Player2's turn they are only half a turn behind. Since Player2 gets to play a full turn, Player1 is now half a turn behind at the start of their next turn. Play continues with both players playing full turns until the game ends with each player always being half a turn ahead at the end of their turn.

(Sorry if you are not familiar with Yu-Gi-Oh)


Defender
Jan 18, 2013
198
My suggestion continued:
If something like this would be implemented to Wizard101 rather than have the second player gain an extra pip, the first player would not gain a pip for their first turn only. They would only have access to equipment pips. There would be no chance of casting a shadow spell on the first turn and hit their opponent before the had a chance to defend themselves because they wouldn't have the pips required, including no shadow pip. They will have a chance to defend themselves if they choose but not have potential to do game winning damage before their opponent has had a chance to defend themselves. Even at low level PvP where players don't have equipment pips they will still have the opportunity to use a zero rank spell or at very least discard so they can draw more useful spells the following turn.

Normally when you have your turn in Wizard101 you get two things: A pip and chance for a shadow pip and also the opportunity to sort out your hand and cast a spell if you choose. Take one of those things away and you only have half a turn. Same as how Yu-Gi-Oh does it.

Since the game would now be played turn by turn players will now gain a pip at the begging of their turn rather than at the same time meaning players will also take turn's gaining pips (with the exception of the first turn). Look a the the rotating triangle in the center of the dueling circle as a guide. Whenever it "arrives" at your side indicating your turn, you and your team gain a pip. Notice how I used the word "arrives". At the begging of a duel neither player has gained any pips other than equipment pips. The player going first will have the triangle pointing to them indicating their turn, but it didn't arrive there. It was there to start with. Once the first turn has been played and the triangle starts rotating players will start receiving pips one after the other at the begging of their turns.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
198
Finally lets talk about how this would need to be adjusted into PvE. There is a very obvious problem that someone is bound to bring up.

If taking turns is the new system then what would happen when starting a PvE fight and the enemy has the first turn?

Something would happen that would be very new to us. Since the AI doesn't take any time to choose their move we will be greeted into the circle with a spell being cast at us right away.

If some people see this as a problem and not a good way to start a fight then don't worry. There is a really simple solution.
Always give the player the first turn. Simple as that.

Also as I said before, the timer would have to stay at 30 seconds for PvE.

Mastermind
Nov 19, 2014
365
Robobot1747 on Dec 23, 2015 wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about and I do not see how that would fix anything at all; if anything it would make it worse since randomness is generally bad.
because be easy everybody have 6 chance

say: 7 dice

1st team had: ice/death/myth/myth
2nd teach death/life/life/storm

dice 1 fire: roll a
dice 2 ice: roll a
dice 3 storm: roll a
dice 4 myth: roll a
dice 5 life: roll a
dice 6 death: roll a
dice 7 balance: roll a

who win the roll answer was: who ever have ice on there team they go first and each of own dice to there own school does not count toward there school because there school dice and have 7 school each 7 dice taking 1 school out every dice have equal 6 chance and do have school won but do not have school on your team go to second roll winner and tie do not count when last roll winner after 1st & 2nd unless if tie unless roll all same school they still win first roll 6 ice 1 myth unless ice on there team be example: second roll winner is do have life then go either or who ever have school on the team goes first!
----------------------------------------------
unless make combat battle standard (everyone have there own school flag & all team and all school guardian spirit) can't not USE BATTLE ORDER (FLAG be showing instead) and have 777 slot rolling dice machine like cherry,cherry,cherry/ or bar, bar, bar but make into school?

rules of combat standard flag: destroy flag for team to win but protected by guardian spirit (destroy flag to destroy guardian spiral) flag 100% damage decrease (how intercept damage take on guardian spirit effect damage on the flag make flag weaker guardian spirit can't hold heal no longer!

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
818
Ghost stone on Dec 28, 2015 wrote:
Finally lets talk about how this would need to be adjusted into PvE. There is a very obvious problem that someone is bound to bring up.

If taking turns is the new system then what would happen when starting a PvE fight and the enemy has the first turn?

Something would happen that would be very new to us. Since the AI doesn't take any time to choose their move we will be greeted into the circle with a spell being cast at us right away.

If some people see this as a problem and not a good way to start a fight then don't worry. There is a really simple solution.
Always give the player the first turn. Simple as that.

Also as I said before, the timer would have to stay at 30 seconds for PvE.
I see you've thought a lot about this. I wasn't considering PvE, I figured that KI could simply restrict this new battle format to PvP, where it's a much larger problem. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing this into PvE though.

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
818
JustinFrostHunter on Dec 29, 2015 wrote:
because be easy everybody have 6 chance

say: 7 dice

1st team had: ice/death/myth/myth
2nd teach death/life/life/storm

dice 1 fire: roll a
dice 2 ice: roll a
dice 3 storm: roll a
dice 4 myth: roll a
dice 5 life: roll a
dice 6 death: roll a
dice 7 balance: roll a

who win the roll answer was: who ever have ice on there team they go first and each of own dice to there own school does not count toward there school because there school dice and have 7 school each 7 dice taking 1 school out every dice have equal 6 chance and do have school won but do not have school on your team go to second roll winner and tie do not count when last roll winner after 1st & 2nd unless if tie unless roll all same school they still win first roll 6 ice 1 myth unless ice on there team be example: second roll winner is do have life then go either or who ever have school on the team goes first!
----------------------------------------------
unless make combat battle standard (everyone have there own school flag & all team and all school guardian spirit) can't not USE BATTLE ORDER (FLAG be showing instead) and have 777 slot rolling dice machine like cherry,cherry,cherry/ or bar, bar, bar but make into school?

rules of combat standard flag: destroy flag for team to win but protected by guardian spirit (destroy flag to destroy guardian spiral) flag 100% damage decrease (how intercept damage take on guardian spirit effect damage on the flag make flag weaker guardian spirit can't hold heal no longer!
That makes... sort of sense, but what if no one has the school that wins the roll? What if two schools tie? Why do we need this ridiculously complex dice system when there are much simpler fixes to be had?

Survivor
Apr 04, 2009
8
JustinFrostHunter on Dec 29, 2015 wrote:
because be easy everybody have 6 chance

say: 7 dice

1st team had: ice/death/myth/myth
2nd teach death/life/life/storm

dice 1 fire: roll a
dice 2 ice: roll a
dice 3 storm: roll a
dice 4 myth: roll a
dice 5 life: roll a
dice 6 death: roll a
dice 7 balance: roll a

who win the roll answer was: who ever have ice on there team they go first and each of own dice to there own school does not count toward there school because there school dice and have 7 school each 7 dice taking 1 school out every dice have equal 6 chance and do have school won but do not have school on your team go to second roll winner and tie do not count when last roll winner after 1st & 2nd unless if tie unless roll all same school they still win first roll 6 ice 1 myth unless ice on there team be example: second roll winner is do have life then go either or who ever have school on the team goes first!
----------------------------------------------
unless make combat battle standard (everyone have there own school flag & all team and all school guardian spirit) can't not USE BATTLE ORDER (FLAG be showing instead) and have 777 slot rolling dice machine like cherry,cherry,cherry/ or bar, bar, bar but make into school?

rules of combat standard flag: destroy flag for team to win but protected by guardian spirit (destroy flag to destroy guardian spiral) flag 100% damage decrease (how intercept damage take on guardian spirit effect damage on the flag make flag weaker guardian spirit can't hold heal no longer!
The dice part doesn't make that much sense, but I like the idea of a flag or tower that the whole team is defending. That means that the team's total hp is the hp of the thing you are protecting. This style would actually be good for pvp because then in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 all wizards can cast spells until the match ends. This would eliminate "targeting" and would nullify aoe spells to single hit. Damage and Resistance from gear wouldn't be used on the tower, and neither would critical and block. Heals would heal the tower, and shields would shield the tower. team heals like unicorn and rebirth wouldn't heal 4 times, just once and Legion shield would only be one.

This format would still have its disadvantages, such as:
-Frozen Armor being really op
-Negative charm placement
-Heal spamming
-Shield spamming
-Still turn based
-Storm becoming top school for its strong single target hits
-Minions wouldn't account for tower hp, making myth stay terrible
-Pet heals becoming op
-1v1 would become stat free who can attack the most
-4 ice would have 24K+ health
-4 storm would have 16K+ health
-Beguile would target wizards still
-Bad communication can lead to a loss

Even with those disadvantages, there would still be some advantages:
-No "targeting"
-aoe spells useless
-More strategic and skilled
-No "Jading"
-No "Warlording"
-No Insanebolt spamming (unless they are trolling :x)
-No Critical low hit spamming
-No Shriking, Seraphing, or Sentinaling
-No Novaing, Sheparding, or Fiending
-Better grouping of teams and enemies (i.e. Ranked together based on level, not based on rank)