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50% Balance Shield needed!

AuthorMessage
Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
digemm wrote:
Leaving aside weakness and tower (& legion) shield (and absorbs for that matter), there already is a Balance shield, it's called Power Play.


Great shield, yeah, let's read on and hear you excellent explanation on how Power Play is a shield...

Every other school gets an aura that costs 2-3 pips to cast that gives their attacks a permanent boost. Yes, the Life and Death ones are on unlearnable Giant/Brown Spider or Red Ghost cards, but the learned Life aura Santuary helps in healing, something that, while everyone may take advantage of with their learned Pixie, Life can REALLY take advantage of, and Death's Doom and Gloom advantage to the death school speaks for itself.


So you mean to tell me, that every school can not take advantage of the healing aura? You mean to say, that other schools can't heal as well as life can? Have you seen the new Life Mastery Amulets? There is no healing spell that you can't find at the Bazaar. There is also the Cosmic Kris and stellar signet. Hmmm, I find your lack of faith disturbing...

Secondly, Every schools Aura, except for death, be it, fire, storm, ice, myth or life, Balance can indeed take advantage of. Why? Because Balance has spells that utilize those effects...

Contrast that to Balance's Power Play. Cost 4 pips to cast, and gives an advantage that EVERYONE can benefit from equally. The net additional permanent aura damage (healing in the case of Life, stunted healing in the case of Death if you want to discount their treasure auras) from the other classes gives rise to the arguement that it compensates for the lack of a true Balance shield. (At first I thought Power Play only affected my team, but when I learned otherwise I realized it is really only useful to remove another school's aura.)

The net result is other classes get to do more damage within their class attacks (or otherwise boost their class specialty) that Balance can't take much advantage of (though Balance can of Sanctuary more than any other class than Life). Sure we might get a little boost with a Hydra or Chimera, or get lucky with a Spectral Blast, but this is affect of this is negligible.

Of course you are going to say it is negligible, because it suits your needs for it to be. Granted, Power Play is not a very good spell, but all the schools have spells that are worthless, not just balance.

So I would make the arguement that a permanent 25-35% boost to your attacks more than compensates for a single use 50% Balance shield. And yes, Balance can cancel it with Power Play, but that will cost Balance 50-100% more pips than it cost other classes to cast their aura (each time they trade off auras!) and the resulting aura won't give Balance a net advantage over their opponent. And this assumes Balance would even waste a space in their deck to carry this, essentially, net-pip-loss purely defensive-counter-use-only spell.


So, your whole basis is on Power Play? 25-35% boost, when Life and death also do not get this attack aura... When in fact, all other auras increase Balance's attacks! Granted, it might be 1 out of 3, or 1 random, but there is that chance of an increase.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
vonawesome1 wrote:
I don't think so, OP. As it stands right now, this game needs Balance shields like Ice wizards need more health.


You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. Now, let's get down to your reasons why, shall we?

We can't prism or use auras; there is no opposing school to convert to, and our blades can easily be countered by a Weakness trap (which anyone can use and the NPCs spam repeatedly). Plus, the Tower Shield blocks all schools 50%, including us, and all wizards can train it...


Ok, your first part is Prisms, no there is no prism for Balance, as Balance can use every possible school of attack. From Elemental to Spiritual, to straight out Balance attacks.

Then you talk about auras, which yes, I agree, power play is useless, however, auras of other schools do in fact increase your attacks when it comes to that school.

Blades countered by weakness? Hmmm isn't there a counter to weakness called cleanse charm? I think there is!

Tower shield, removed by anyone and any possible attack, or steal ward, or pierce, or shatter... Hmmm, not quite sure where you are going with this, especially since all schools have an 80% school specific shield and Balance has a 0% school specific shield... Also, again, not asking for an 80% like all other schools, asking for a 40% to 50% school specific shield to even out the odds.


@ digemm- you make a very good point. Power Play is a waste of pips, and I keep only one copy in my deck (to counter enemy auras). Other notable pip-wasters are Donate Power and the future AOE heal that KI will probably give us when they increase the level cap again.

-

I'm guessing that the OP recently lost to a sorcerer in PvP and then cried "Judge Noob". Don't worry, we're used to it.

Laura Shadowsong
Transcended Sorceress


You think I lost to a sorcerer in PvP, hmmm interesting theory, however, as your post is, that would be wrong. Sorry, try again!

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
digemm wrote:
I pick up Clockwork Spiders in Bazaar whenever I can. Cost the same 4 pips to cast but you get a free attack with your aura change :-)


I read about those on Central, but have never seen one and even heard that they are no longer in use. Aside from the bazaar, where might I be able to find one?

digemm wrote:
Would this presumably be a Heall All Team Members spell? If so, WOOT - a way to bring back Mander from one shot kills right after you summon when you go second ;) - hopefully it's cheaper than Unicorn!


Probably. And that's all fine and well, except Mr. Mander was exiled from my deck at level... somewhere between Dragonspyre and CS. He's a great companion to have, but not really a good use of pips- he only has 300 health, and anyone at that level can one-hit KO him easily.

I imagine it would be like Unicorn, but it would have to be more powerful if it's a rank 10 spell... Aside from Life, we are the only school that can heal others (Sacrifice doesn't count, IMO) and, though Availing Hands is spiffy- it can heal more than Regenerate, with crit and incoming heal boost- I really hate healing. So the day we get an AOE heal, I *will* quit, since I'm a rogue sorceress and kinda like smashing stuff. :-P

L.S.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1639
vonawesome1 wrote:
I don't think so, OP. As it stands right now, this game needs Balance shields like Ice wizards need more health.

We can't prism or use auras; there is no opposing school to convert to, and our blades can easily be countered by a Weakness trap (which anyone can use and the NPCs spam repeatedly). Plus, the Tower Shield blocks all schools 50%, including us, and all wizards can train it...

@ digemm- you make a very good point. Power Play is a waste of pips, and I keep only one copy in my deck (to counter enemy auras). Other notable pip-wasters are Donate Power and the future AOE heal that KI will probably give us when they increase the level cap again.

-

I'm guessing that the OP recently lost to a sorcerer in PvP and then cried "Judge Noob". Don't worry, we're used to it.

Laura Shadowsong
Transcended Sorceress


I don't think we're going to get another heal in a while.

Mastermind
Jul 25, 2010
387
So darthjt you basically stated that you could beat a sorcerer in pvp right?, so why ask for a balance shield? is it to balance the game? or is it for your needs?enlighten me please.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
I said I wasn't going to post on this again, but I have been pressured into it, sorry.
Aura, Life, lets see, they can play it, then drop out Life Dispels, and guess what, it only help them. The White beared wonder drops two each hit, in addition to what the Life Wizard drops. A life wizard with the Aura out, cannot be killed, imo.
Death, He has a 2 pip aura, and is the only one that can get a real heal under it. Plus he can spam infection, if played right, he can't be beat.
All others but Balance can throw out a aura that only helps them, with a boost to their attacks.
Balance has a four pip aura that helps the other wizard more than it helps them. What doesn't anyone get about this, it seems pretty simple.

Balance has no way to remove shields, a weak minion and a useless Aura.
It has medium hit spells, plus they lose their low boosting Balance blades every time they need to use their wand or any misc hit spell.
Balance is simple not that strong, especially when their only X spell is normallly used as a finisher by any skilled player.

Add a shield to an already hard to play Wizard, and you have a useless wizard that can't pvp at all. Add the shield and you are forced to add other spells for Balance. Not to mention you have destroyed what the Balance spells are suppose to be. One Shield to stop, the Tower shield, it's the only advantage the Balance Wizard has.

Joe.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
darthjt wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.


I never said that you weren't. You obviously like to argue, as we go through this every, single time, so I will say this only once: don't put words in my mouth, please & thanks.

darthjt wrote:
Ok, your first part is Prisms, no there is no prism for Balance, as Balance can use every possible school of attack. From Elemental to Spiritual, to straight out Balance attacks.


If you're talking post-Zaf, then you are indeed correct.

Before Chimera came along, we had NO spirit attacks at all, and that was my biggest problem with Balance- we were supposed to be a mix of everything, yet we were strictly elemental-based.

Our prisms are built-in, yes; but any other school can resist with their -70% shield or a tower.

darthjt wrote:
Then you talk about auras, which yes, I agree, power play is useless, however, auras of other schools do in fact increase your attacks when it comes to that school.


Useless is an understatement, really. And, while casting a Storm aura (for example) will work nicely for Spec or Hydra, that's about where it ends; not to mention that we wouldn't get anywhere near the boost that someone who actually belongs to that school would get, plus we have to use double the pips to cast it. Not exactly efficient, IMO.

darthjt wrote:
Blades countered by weakness? Hmmm isn't there a counter to weakness called cleanse charm? I think there is!


No need to be rude. It's true that there are fixes for this- I have a Wyrm's Blessing charm that gives me the card for free, but I can only use it once. Treasure versions are great, but remember that they can and do run out mid-battle.

darthjt wrote:
Tower shield, removed by anyone and any possible attack, or steal ward, or pierce, or shatter... Hmmm, not quite sure where you are going with this, especially since all schools have an 80% school specific shield and Balance has a 0% school specific shield... Also, again, not asking for an 80% like all other schools, asking for a 40% to 50% school specific shield to even out the odds.


That would sort of defeat the point of the Balance school, though I'm sure that would be quite fine with you.

darthjt wrote:
You think I lost to a sorcerer in PvP, hmmm interesting theory, however, as your post is, that would be wrong. Sorry, try again!


Since you only seem to have a hate-on for Balance spells (and not spec or Hydra/Chimera), it certainly sounds that way.

If you didn't buff adequately, then you deserve to get hit. Judge is the only Balance spell that can do significant damage (without buffs or crit), and anyone who gets hit with a full-pip one is going to cry about it. Instead of whining and spamming the boards for a shield, why not hone your strategy and give that sorcerer his (or her) comeuppance the next time you see him/her in the arena?

Sorry, OP. Play again.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
watsupdog111 wrote:
So darthjt you basically stated that you could beat a sorcerer in pvp right?, so why ask for a balance shield? is it to balance the game? or is it for your needs?enlighten me please.


Because I am an exception to almost every PvP rule there is. What I find easy, almost everyone else finds challenging or very difficult.

I am the one who can see clearly, looks at things unbiasedly, looks at aspects from all angles, from storm, fire, ice, life, death, myth, and balance.

While some think I am picking on Balance at the moment, I am trying to bring back some Balance to Balance as it is getting Overpowered.

Of course, Balance wont say that, why would they?

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Lion359 wrote:
I said I wasn't going to post on this again, but I have been pressured into it, sorry.
Aura, Life, lets see, they can play it, then drop out Life Dispels, and guess what, it only help them. The White beared wonder drops two each hit, in addition to what the Life Wizard drops. A life wizard with the Aura out, cannot be killed, imo.


Hmm, I could have sworn the Judgment pet gives 2 random dispels, both could be life, could they not? Also, the life dispel is trainable and anyone can use a life mastery amulet, allowing for life, not just to lose those precious attacks and heals, but to lose all their pips in the process.

Also, you talk about the Life dispels as if Pet's dont eat them up with spritely or people don't have the lifeforce blade that will eat up life dispels for 0 pip cost.

Death, He has a 2 pip aura, and is the only one that can get a real heal under it. Plus he can spam infection, if played right, he can't be beat.
All others but Balance can throw out a aura that only helps them, with a boost to their attacks.


Death also loses more damage than Balance does with the effects of drain spells. I mean, Scarecrow only does 400 damage for 7 pips! Yes, they can heal using drain spells normally, but lose when casting any normal heal spells or even sacrifice. Not to mention Balance has how many ways to shield against death?

Balance has a four pip aura that helps the other wizard more than it helps them. What doesn't anyone get about this, it seems pretty simple.


Well, if you use the newer zafaria gear, you get armor piercing, which takes away from any resistance your opponents have or Tower shield they might put up. Not to mention, when the Real new level 70 gear comes out, what resistances it will have. So, now with armor piercing and only 1 possible shield to stop balance attacks, you fail to see the fairness?

Does every school not get useless spells? So now, the only school that is not supposed to get a useless spell is Balance? How fair is that? Can you name 1 other useless spell Balance has?

Balance has no way to remove shields, a weak minion and a useless Aura.


A weak minion? Who Balance? You are joking right? Balance minion uses donate power, balance blade, shields, and does attack. How is this useless?

It has medium hit spells, plus they lose their low boosting Balance blades every time they need to use their wand or any misc hit spell.

And there is no school specific shield to balance, so, what exactly are you complaining about here? There needs to be one, so any attack can not remove it. This would balance things out.

Balance is simple not that strong, especially when their only X spell is normallly used as a finisher by any skilled player.


Balance is the one school that can choose to use elemental attacks, spiritual attacks, or balance attacks, all depending on what shields are in play and what shields are not in play. You think everyone has every shield at all times and ready in hand? So when Balance is ready to attack, they can call all kinds of different spells to go around shields and maximize their attacks, unlike other schools. Simple minds thinks in simple ways.


Add a shield to an already hard to play Wizard, and you have a useless wizard that can't pvp at all. Add the shield and you are forced to add other spells for Balance. Not to mention you have destroyed what the Balance spells are suppose to be. One Shield to stop, the Tower shield, it's the only advantage the Balance Wizard has.

Joe.


Balance is hard to play? Balance is one of the easiest schools to play. I am sorry you have such a difficult time with Balance, but seriously, balance is not that hard.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
vonawesome1 wrote:
darthjt wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.


I never said that you weren't. You obviously like to argue, as we go through this every, single time, so I will say this only once: don't put words in my mouth, please & thanks.


I like to debate things, not argue. Not sure what words I was putting in your mouth with the quote you quoted me on, but ok.

darthjt wrote:
Ok, your first part is Prisms, no there is no prism for Balance, as Balance can use every possible school of attack. From Elemental to Spiritual, to straight out Balance attacks.


If you're talking post-Zaf, then you are indeed correct.


Yes, this I know! :D

Before Chimera came along, we had NO spirit attacks at all, and that was my biggest problem with Balance- we were supposed to be a mix of everything, yet we were strictly elemental-based.


Fascinating

Our prisms are built-in, yes; but any other school can resist with their -70% shield or a tower.

Or they can resist 2 out of the 3 attacks. Tell me, how much is it possible to resist other schools attacks? 70%, 80%, 90%, and tower shields?

What happens if Balance uses a balance attack? How much shielding is used then? Compare that to other schools. Then, add in armor piercing and colossal, are you really missing the additional power being given to Balance?


darthjt wrote:
Then you talk about auras, which yes, I agree, power play is useless, however, auras of other schools do in fact increase your attacks when it comes to that school.


Useless is an understatement, really. And, while casting a Storm aura (for example) will work nicely for Spec or Hydra, that's about where it ends; not to mention that we wouldn't get anywhere near the boost that someone who actually belongs to that school would get, plus we have to use double the pips to cast it. Not exactly efficient, IMO.


Efficient? Last I checked, most schools are seriously losing in power pip chance, depending on the gear, athame, and ring they use. However, Balance still seems to use waterworks gear, etc, giving balance high 90% power pip chance, if not over 100%. Seems to me, that when other schools have 70% chance and they start getting noob pips like 3,4, up to 9 turns in a row, that you are on the same scale of casting an aura as they are. Which, this happens more often than you might think.


darthjt wrote:
Blades countered by weakness? Hmmm isn't there a counter to weakness called cleanse charm? I think there is!


No need to be rude. It's true that there are fixes for this- I have a Wyrm's Blessing charm that gives me the card for free, but I can only use it once. Treasure versions are great, but remember that they can and do run out mid-battle.


Yes, treausre can run out mid-battle, and so can the weaknesses being used by your opponent. Why is it, everyone insists that they are limited to spells, while their oppenent has an unlimited supply of the other spells? Is this to justify their means and make their point? Wouldn't that make their point biased and wrong?

darthjt wrote:
Tower shield, removed by anyone and any possible attack, or steal ward, or pierce, or shatter... Hmmm, not quite sure where you are going with this, especially since all schools have an 80% school specific shield and Balance has a 0% school specific shield... Also, again, not asking for an 80% like all other schools, asking for a 40% to 50% school specific shield to even out the odds.


That would sort of defeat the point of the Balance school, though I'm sure that would be quite fine with you.


How exactly would that defeat the point of Balance? Please enlighten me. How do you not see the additional power of Armor Piercing? Enlighten me on that too. At some point there needs to be balance to all schools, including the Balance school.

darthjt wrote:
You think I lost to a sorcerer in PvP, hmmm interesting theory, however, as your post is, that would be wrong. Sorry, try again!


Since you only seem to have a hate-on for Balance spells (and not spec or Hydra/Chimera), it certainly sounds that way.

If you didn't buff adequately, then you deserve to get hit. Judge is the only Balance spell that can do significant damage (without buffs or crit), and anyone who gets hit with a full-pip one is going to cry about it. Instead of whining and spamming the boards for a shield, why not hone your strategy and give that sorcerer his (or her) comeuppance the next time you see him/her in the arena?

Sorry, OP. Play again.


Power play again... lol

Think what you will, but until you come up with an actual rebuttal to how and why a balance shield is not needed, besides, "power play", I am firmly going to claim that this shield is needed to keep balance in check. Not just for Judgment, but for all Balance spells and all forms of PvP, be it 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 matches, where balance especially has an advantage.

Those spells that you call weak, like Ra, where no shields protect your opponent and Armor Piercing eats at their Resistance, makes for massive damage from this school.

Mastermind
Jul 25, 2010
387
Honestly he is whinning about a shield just to block judgement like i said in my previous post, who would want a shield really really bad!!! just for ra or sandstorm or scarab or scorpion.

Survivor
Aug 23, 2011
19
darthjt wrote:
...So you mean to tell me, that every school can not take advantage of the healing aura?...

Nope, as a matter of fact I already addressed that:
digemm wrote:
...Balance can [take advantage] of Sanctuary more than any other class than Life...
Every other school gets an aura that costs 2-3 pips to cast that gives their attacks a permanent boost...the Life and Death ones are on unlearnable Giant/Brown Spider or Red Ghost cards...
...Santuary helps in healing...everyone may take advantage of...Life can REALLY take advantage of...


darthjt wrote:
Secondly, Every schools Aura, except for death, be it, fire, storm, ice, myth or life, Balance can indeed take advantage of. Why? Because Balance has spells that utilize those effects...
digemm wrote:
...[the] affect of this is negligible.

Of course you are going to say it is negligible, because it suits your needs for it to be. Granted, Power Play is not a very good spell, but all the schools have spells that are worthless, not just balance.


Yes, but we aren't discussing ALL spells, just the justification (or lack thereof) of a 50% Balance Shield. So let's do that:
Chimera:
A 25% boost to 1/3 of the Chimera spell would be a 8.67% boost
(if 30% for Life's Brown Spider Treasure card it would be a 10% boost)

Hydra:
A 25% boost to 1/3 of the Hydra spell would again be a 8.67% boost
(of 35% for Ice's Balefrost it would be a 11.67% boost)

Spectral Blast:
A 25% boost to the 440 Fire damage would be great, but it only has 1/3 chance to be fire, so it's an effective 8.67% boost to 440: 38 points
A 35% boost to the 365 Ice damage at 1/3 chance would be an effective 11.67% boost to 365: 43 points
A 25% boost to the 550 Storm damage at 1/3 chance would be an effection 8.67% boost to 550: 48 points

All other Balance Spells:
0% boost.

So as far as the question of neglible damage boost to some Balance Spells:
A 8.67 - 11.67% boost on only one (spirit auras) or two (elemental auras) types of (medium to high level) Balance Spells compared to the 25 - 35% boost on ALL of a classes spell attacks coming back at you is, yes, in my opinion, negligible.

darthjt wrote:
So, your whole basis is on Power Play? 25-35% boost, when Life and death also do not get this attack aura...

They most certainly do have the ability to get this attack aura as previously mentioned above and in my original post. Life can from a pet or treasure card, death can from a pet, but there Doom and Gloom is arguably more powerful and benefits Death life stealing ability.

Let's not be disingenuous here and try to obfuscate the facts but because it suits your needs in a specific argument. ;)

darthjt wrote:
When in fact, all other auras increase Balance's attacks!...

I think you are pretty well making my argument for me here. You argue there is a need for a 50% Balance Shield. I counter that the Attack Auras of all other schools giving a persistent 25-35% attack boost (pointing out the fruitlessness of the Balance aura) counters this.

Here you make the untenable arguement that Balance can benefit from those aura boosts too though. Yes, they can to a small degree. They can also be blocked to a high degree.

Consider an Elemental aura. Fire, Ice and Storm could boost Balance's Hydra and Spectral Blast spells (effectively 2/3 less than it boosts ALL of their own class spells). But they also have an 80% class shield and a dual 70% opposing classes shields.

Using the 80% shield would change the 8.67 - 11.67% boost to Hydra with the aura to an effective 25.89 - 26.089 shield. (This is arrived by accounting for 100% of the other two elemental classes damage while blocking 80% of the 108.67 - 111.67% boosted self class damage.)

Using the dual 70% opposing class shields would effectively change the boost into a 42.78 - 43.78% shield. (Using both would increase it to an effective 73.33% shield!)

The same effective shield applies to Spectral Blast as well as Chimera for the spirit classes (a bit more even they have only 25-30% attack auras).

If we are to take the least onerous case against Balance, a 25-35% opponent Attack aura boost with a single 80% self class shield (which we determined grants a bit more than a 25% shield to the Balance Spell that could take advantage of the aura) comes out to a net 50 - 60% gain to the Attack aura boosted player. (Really it's just a 25% Balance shield with a persistent 25-35% self class boosted attack aura, even better for the non Balance Player.)

So in Summation...

You want a 50% Balance shield against all of the Balance class damage attacks.

I point out that the attack auras of all of the schools grant a persistent 25-35% attack boost which I argue (at least!) compensates against a single use 50% Balance Shield.

You argue that Balance benefits (more than a neglible amount) from these attack auras as well.

I counter that those Balance attacks can already be shielded against by the class that cast the Attack aura by at least 25% with their 80% class shield (up to a whopping 73.33% with both class shield and dual opposing class shields) which given their attack boosts from the aura is a net difference of 50-60% ... and there's your 50% Balance Shield!

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
watsupdog111 wrote:
Honestly he is whinning about a shield just to block judgement like i said in my previous post, who would want a shield really really bad!!! just for ra or sandstorm or scarab or scorpion.


Since when have you failed to read the posts thoroughly Watsupdog? Getting lazy in your old age, or just don't want to be proven wrong?

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
digemm wrote:
darthjt wrote:
...So you mean to tell me, that every school can not take advantage of the healing aura?...

Nope, as a matter of fact I already addressed that:


As I have also addressed it and proven how any and every class can. People tend to use the statistics they want and not look at the entire picture. I have proven this point, time and time again.

digemm wrote:
...Balance can [take advantage] of Sanctuary more than any other class than Life...
Every other school gets an aura that costs 2-3 pips to cast that gives their attacks a permanent boost...the Life and Death ones are on unlearnable Giant/Brown Spider or Red Ghost cards...
...Santuary helps in healing...everyone may take advantage of...Life can REALLY take advantage of...

Ah yes, the infamous treasure card or pet cards that give auras. Not that easy to find, are they? Is there not also one for balance? Is there not also a may cast powerplay? Hmm I believe there is. However, that is a mute point. As for Doom and Gloom, yes, it is quite powerful to Death, but Death also makes up for it, when you consider the fact that Death's Scarecrow spell does 400 damage to all for 7 pips... But I am repeating myself, why don't you just read the posts.

darthjt wrote:
Secondly, Every schools Aura, except for death, be it, fire, storm, ice, myth or life, Balance can indeed take advantage of. Why? Because Balance has spells that utilize those effects...
digemm wrote:
...[the] affect of this is negligible.

Of course you are going to say it is negligible, because it suits your needs for it to be. Granted, Power Play is not a very good spell, but all the schools have spells that are worthless, not just balance.


Yes, but we aren't discussing ALL spells, just the justification (or lack thereof) of a 50% Balance Shield. So let's do that:


Yes, let's discuss the Justification for a 50% Balance shield, shall we?

Armor Piercing wand 3%, Armor Piercing Infallible Treasure card 20% Not that anyone would use any Armor Piercing Gear. So, you have 23% armor Piercing, correct? Yes, I think so.

Now, if you add in Colossal, to any Balance Spell +275 And take away 23% of a tower shield, or 23% resistance, you have quite a powerful spell of any school. Do you care to argue the facts?


Chimera:
A 25% boost to 1/3 of the Chimera spell would be a 8.67% boost
(if 30% for Life's Brown Spider Treasure card it would be a 10% boost)

Hydra:
A 25% boost to 1/3 of the Hydra spell would again be a 8.67% boost
(of 35% for Ice's Balefrost it would be a 11.67% boost)

Spectral Blast:
A 25% boost to the 440 Fire damage would be great, but it only has 1/3 chance to be fire, so it's an effective 8.67% boost to 440: 38 points
A 35% boost to the 365 Ice damage at 1/3 chance would be an effective 11.67% boost to 365: 43 points
A 25% boost to the 550 Storm damage at 1/3 chance would be an effection 8.67% boost to 550: 48 points

All other Balance Spells:
0% boost.

So as far as the question of neglible damage boost to some Balance Spells:
A 8.67 - 11.67% boost on only one (spirit auras) or two (elemental auras) types of (medium to high level) Balance Spells compared to the 25 - 35% boost on ALL of a classes spell attacks coming back at you is, yes, in my opinion, negligible.


Ah yes, adding in school shields, where as Balance has no shields. Interesting concept. Where as a 25% boost makes up for a 0% shield. Very well done, how does this math balance out again? I don't see how a 25% boost = an 80% shield. Especially when their boosts, also boost your attacks. I don't see a storm aura boosting an Ice attack. Go figure.

darthjt wrote:
So, your whole basis is on Power Play? 25-35% boost, when Life and death also do not get this attack aura...

They most certainly do have the ability to get this attack aura as previously mentioned above and in my original post. Life can from a pet or treasure card, death can from a pet, but there Doom and Gloom is arguably more powerful and benefits Death life stealing ability.

Let's not be disingenuous here and try to obfuscate the facts but because it suits your needs in a specific argument. ;)

darthjt wrote:
When in fact, all other auras increase Balance's attacks!...

I think you are pretty well making my argument for me here. You argue there is a need for a 50% Balance Shield. I counter that the Attack Auras of all other schools giving a persistent 25-35% attack boost (pointing out the fruitlessness of the Balance aura) counters this.


Again, how does you math balance this out? When other auras increase your attacks and a 25% boost does not = an 80% balance, not to mention the fact of the new armor piercing talents.

Here you make the untenable arguement that Balance can benefit from those aura boosts too though. Yes, they can to a small degree. They can also be blocked to a high degree.


As they also can to that school, which does have shields to block it's attacks, whereas Balance does not!

Consider an Elemental aura. Fire, Ice and Storm could boost Balance's Hydra and Spectral Blast spells (effectively 2/3 less than it boosts ALL of their own class spells). But they also have an 80% class shield and a dual 70% opposing classes shields.


Exactly, These schools have 70% shields to their attacks, 80% shields to their attacks, 50% shields to their attacks, 55% shields to their attacks, 30% shields to their attacks, 35% shields to their attacks, even 90% shields to their attacks, whereas balance has at most, a 30, 35, 50, 55% shield. How exactly is your math making any kind of balance with aura's and armor piercing?

Using the 80% shield would change the 8.67 - 11.67% boost to Hydra with the aura to an effective 25.89 - 26.089 shield. (This is arrived by accounting for 100% of the other two elemental classes damage while blocking 80% of the 108.67 - 111.67% boosted self class damage.)


Ah yes, but, while your attack might be blocked by the 1 shield, it goes through on 2 different attacks, causing considerable more damage than if Ice, fire, or Storm were to attack and come across a shield of their school.

Using the dual 70% opposing class shields would effectively change the boost into a 42.78 - 43.78% shield. (Using both would increase it to an effective 73.33% shield!)

Again, 2 of your attacks might be shielded, but 1 of your attacks will still go through, causing more damage than a shield for that individual school...


The same effective shield applies to Spectral Blast as well as Chimera for the spirit classes (a bit more even they have only 25-30% attack auras).

Spectral Blast can bypass single or dual shields entirely, giving full effect of it's attack. Where as, chimera also has 3 attacks and can bypass 2 or 1 of the potential shields. Effectively neutralizing your supposed claim that the aura is the sole reason not to have a balance shield!


If we are to take the least onerous case against Balance, a 25-35% opponent Attack aura boost with a single 80% self class shield (which we determined grants a bit more than a 25% shield to the Balance Spell that could take advantage of the aura) comes out to a net 50 - 60% gain to the Attack aura boosted player. (Really it's just a 25% Balance shield with a persistent 25-35% self class boosted attack aura, even better for the non Balance Player.)


Already covered all this ground and your mathematics have yet to prove anything. You have not covered at all how this boost effectively neutralizes the need for a balance school shield.

So in Summation...

You want a 50% Balance shield against all of the Balance class damage attacks.

I point out that the attack auras of all of the schools grant a persistent 25-35% attack boost which I argue (at least!) compensates against a single use 50% Balance Shield.


Which I have effectively demonstrated time and time again, proven with facts, figures, and reasons why, it has not. You must take everything into account, not just 1 spell.

Take a look at all schools, every school has spells that are worthless, are they compensated for those worthless spells? no they are not.


You argue that Balance benefits (more than a neglible amount) from these attack auras as well.

I counter that those Balance attacks can already be shielded against by the class that cast the Attack aura by at least 25% with their 80% class shield (up to a whopping 73.33% with both class shield and dual opposing class shields) which given their attack boosts from the aura is a net difference of 50-60% ... and there's your 50% Balance Shield!


Again, you your mathematics are not adding up correctly, as you are not taking into account the spells that pass through the shields, whereas other schools will be fully blocked by those shields.

You are also not taking into consideration of the Armor Piercing Talent with Colossal Enchantment. When you truly do the math and look at this with an open mind and not from a biased perspective, you will see the points I am making and why it is now time for a 40 to 50% balance shield.

Mastermind
Jul 25, 2010
387
darthjt wrote:
watsupdog111 wrote:
Honestly he is whinning about a shield just to block judgement like i said in my previous post, who would want a shield really really bad!!! just for ra or sandstorm or scarab or scorpion.


Since when have you failed to read the posts thoroughly Watsupdog? Getting lazy in your old age, or just don't want to be proven wrong?
Sorry if i dont check the same message each hour unlike you

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
darthjt wrote:
watsupdog111 wrote:
Honestly he is whinning about a shield just to block judgement like i said in my previous post, who would want a shield really really bad!!! just for ra or sandstorm or scarab or scorpion.


Since when have you failed to read the posts thoroughly Watsupdog? Getting lazy in your old age, or just don't want to be proven wrong?


In my humble opinion, OP, it sounds like you're the one who doesn't want to be wrong. And yes, you are whining.

That all said, I actually found your retort (re:Power Play) to be somewhat amusing.

Explorer
Mar 15, 2011
89
Explorer
Aug 14, 2011
67
darthjt wrote:
watsupdog111 wrote:
So darthjt you basically stated that you could beat a sorcerer in pvp right?, so why ask for a balance shield? is it to balance the game? or is it for your needs?enlighten me please.


Because I am an exception to almost every PvP rule there is. What I find easy, almost everyone else finds challenging or very difficult.

I am the one who can see clearly, looks at things unbiasedly, looks at aspects from all angles, from storm, fire, ice, life, death, myth, and balance.

While some think I am picking on Balance at the moment, I am trying to bring back some Balance to Balance as it is getting Overpowered.

Of course, Balance wont say that, why would they?


Not trying to be mean, or rude, or anything like that, but there is an aspect of this 50% shield for balance that is "needed" that you didn't seem to see.

Everyone is bombarding you with "Well, Balance can't blade up with weakness and tower shield!! " And, of course, I agree with you with the fact that you can use Cleanse Charm and Pierce/Shatter, or even Earthquake (if they trained it and aren't allowed to use treasures, or something :?)

I just have 1 question. I=. If they can just use Pierce for Tower Shield, will they not just use Pierce for this 50% Balance shield?

So if you could explain what the difference would be, that would be nice. :-)
______________________________________________________

Sorry, I'm just now editing this; I read your thoughts about Infallible and all that, and realized that every other school has to deal with Tower shield, as well as their own school shield, so why doesn't Balance have to deal with both..?

I get it now :-D

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
jojowild23 wrote:

Balance is not Overpowered. Period. End of story.


Jojo,

How can you say that, as Darthjt has clearly pointed out now that Infallible has been released it makes Balance overpowered.

Uh, lets see, all schools get to use it. Efreet, Mammonth, new Myth spell, etc can use it, and Balance does not have anywhere near the resist as Ice at 65% resist or better.......
Oh, sorry, I'm getting off topic, lets see, a typical Balance has about the same resist as a Fire. Fire spells hit well above what Balance does, no comparison. Fire has better gear boost than Balance, and can hit like a train. Ice can have 65% resist or better to Fire and Storm (balance's main two hitting spells in spectra Blast). So lets see now, we can drop those down to 50% resist if we use infallible.
Wow, now I see how powerful Balance is, or no, uh just wait a second, 50%, but they drop me to 23%. Gosh, I guess I'm getting confused on the unreal power of Balance.

Wait, maybe this will help, I watched a bunch of PvP matches, and the majority of the time Balnace lost (see my other posting for numbers). Now that Balance is so overpowered, I guess I confused as to why Balacne is losing so often.
Also, in the last few weeks, I have seen very, very few Balance Warlords when compared to any other school.
I guess I'm in a puzzle here, not many Balance warlords, not many Balance winning in pvp, all other schools get the same benefits of the spells. Chimera has no after effect, so they basically lose the benefit of the extra turn.
Oh yeah, and I noticed that from the Test Realm when Chimera was clearly hitting extememly low and Balance was winning very few, they finally realized how weak it was and increase the Hitting Power.

So even KI realized back in the Test Realm how weak Balance was, and decided to give them a small boost in their spell.

So Jojo, I guess you are right, Balance is not overpowered at all, and everyone, even KI knows it.

Joe.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
For those Balance Wizards defending their school, I respect that. I have not gone on to name calling or putting people down, unlike some of you.

Now, again, let me enlighten some of you.

It has been said that Armor Piercing can be used for all schools, this is very much a correct statement.

Although, if you look closely at your statement. I will take storm for instance, Since Ice's resistance is also brought into the subject.

Storm has shields of 90% tc, 80% storm shields, 70% dual shields, 55% tc tower, 50% tower, etc. And Ice has up to 70% storm resistance.

Now, you want to compare Balance? You state global resistance of up to 65%, fine so be it, a bit exaggerated, but I will allow this. You are then only shielded by a tower shield, which can be removed with a large number of possible ways.

Some have even stated the defense of, if pierce will work on a tower, why will it not work on a balance shield. It will also work on a balance shield, however, it can't just be removed by all the other possible ways or spells. It will actually give some protection to Balance spells.

Some say this is only because of Judgment, however, this goes far beyond Judgment or even 1v1 pvp scenarios.

Some say look at the wins and losses of Balance in PvP. Well, by the sounds and reasoning behind some of the Balance wizards, it is quite obvious that they don't do the math. If they did, they would not be losing so much.

Balance has more advantages than any other school, the only disadvantage, is the fact that they, like storm and life, do not have their own DoT. Oh and if you state that storm has storm elf and storm hound, then you might as well state that Balance has Storm elf, Fire elf, and Ice elf, because Balance has no school specific shield yet.

So, while I respect that Balance is defending their school, I ask that you open your minds and think about this without bias.

Mastermind
Jul 25, 2010
387
darthjt wrote:
For those Balance Wizards defending their school, I respect that. I have not gone on to name calling or putting people down, unlike some of you.

Now, again, let me enlighten some of you.

It has been said that Armor Piercing can be used for all schools, this is very much a correct statement.

Although, if you look closely at your statement. I will take storm for instance, Since Ice's resistance is also brought into the subject.

Storm has shields of 90% tc, 80% storm shields, 70% dual shields, 55% tc tower, 50% tower, etc. And Ice has up to 70% storm resistance.

Now, you want to compare Balance? You state global resistance of up to 65%, fine so be it, a bit exaggerated, but I will allow this. You are then only shielded by a tower shield, which can be removed with a large number of possible ways.

Some have even stated the defense of, if pierce will work on a tower, why will it not work on a balance shield. It will also work on a balance shield, however, it can't just be removed by all the other possible ways or spells. It will actually give some protection to Balance spells.

Some say this is only because of Judgment, however, this goes far beyond Judgment or even 1v1 pvp scenarios.

Some say look at the wins and losses of Balance in PvP. Well, by the sounds and reasoning behind some of the Balance wizards, it is quite obvious that they don't do the math. If they did, they would not be losing so much.

Balance has more advantages than any other school, the only disadvantage, is the fact that they, like storm and life, do not have their own DoT. Oh and if you state that storm has storm elf and storm hound, then you might as well state that Balance has Storm elf, Fire elf, and Ice elf, because Balance has no school specific shield yet.

So, while I respect that Balance is defending their school, I ask that you open your minds and think about this without bias.
I am not balance and secondly what matches are you pointing to that needs a balance shield 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? or 4v4?, and i mean really REALLY needs a balance shield.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
watsupdog111

Not exactly sure the relevance of your question. The Balance shield is needed in all aspects of PVP, be it 4v4, 3v3, 2v2, or even a 1v1.

Is there a set possible matchup that it might be needed more? Well, if you look at possible scenarios, then of course the answer would have to be a 4v4 match, since you could be facing 3 balance and say a fire, or even 4 Balance wizards.

Are you making a point in your question?

Mastermind
Jul 25, 2010
387
darthjt wrote:
watsupdog111

Not exactly sure the relevance of your question. The Balance shield is needed in all aspects of PVP, be it 4v4, 3v3, 2v2, or even a 1v1.

Is there a set possible matchup that it might be needed more? Well, if you look at possible scenarios, then of course the answer would have to be a 4v4 match, since you could be facing 3 balance and say a fire, or even 4 Balance wizards.

Are you making a point in your question?
Am just saying its ridiculous to get a specific balance shield just to block judgement and Ra only, and there is already a tower shield. If people dont take advantage of getting a tower shield, a balance shield will get them moving? especially a shield that does take the same damage as a tower shield whats the point of that?. Unless you want people to make a combo shield 50- + 50-, one of the most weakest damage base schools needs another shield to balance the game? if they already got a shield to block balance there is no point for another one, and Ki would think the same too.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
watsupdog111 wrote:
darthjt wrote:
watsupdog111

Not exactly sure the relevance of your question. The Balance shield is needed in all aspects of PVP, be it 4v4, 3v3, 2v2, or even a 1v1.

Is there a set possible matchup that it might be needed more? Well, if you look at possible scenarios, then of course the answer would have to be a 4v4 match, since you could be facing 3 balance and say a fire, or even 4 Balance wizards.

Are you making a point in your question?
Am just saying its ridiculous to get a specific balance shield just to block judgement and Ra only, and there is already a tower shield. If people dont take advantage of getting a tower shield, a balance shield will get them moving? especially a shield that does take the same damage as a tower shield whats the point of that?. Unless you want people to make a combo shield 50- + 50-, one of the most weakest damage base schools needs another shield to balance the game? if they already got a shield to block balance there is no point for another one, and Ki would think the same too.


How is it ridiculous? If you were playing a 4v4 pvp match, anyone that attacks before balance would take out any tower shields. Balance using 1 blade and infallible can do some serious damage with an enchanted Ra... Just saying, it is now getting to the time, that balance becomes balanced and has to deal with a school specific shield like the rest of the schools.

If more damage to the spells is needed to compensate for this shield, I am sure KI will implement this.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1639
I don't get anymore why people are thinking that this is such a bad idea. Are you having trouble on your Balance wizard? Storm and Life face much bigger situations, and yet we're complaining? Since when did you even use a Judgement in a 1v1? If you're a spammer, then this shield would be teaching you a lesson by practically saying,"Get strategy!"

This would end the whole 'Judgement is overpowered' story. You can already take off 30% off with armor piercing spells such as Infallible and Unstoppable, and then with the new wand that everyone is now farming for, a full 50% off! You would shake this shield off anyways! So why you're complaining I don't know. And I'm a Balance wizard, and I don't get challenges in PvP much.

Balance wizards that spam Judgement or that aren't good at Balance should just MOVE ON! People say that Balance loses mostly, and that's because many wizards aren't good at Balance! So the Balance Shield is realistic, and could be applied to the game. I understand that Ice isn't overpowered anymore thanks to Armor Piercing! :D So, that's all you have to do Balance wizards, Armor Pierce is part of the game now, now use it!