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A philosophical waxing on difficulty

AuthorMessage
Mastermind
Feb 07, 2010
386
So there are these people who solve every problem by throwing crowns at it. They buy potions and henchmen as if they don't know they're using real money. Then they start complaining that the game is too easy, because they've given themselves an unfair advantage. As a result Kingsisle tries to make things hard enough to challenge those kinds of people, which isn't good for the people who don't buy their way to victory.

So firstly, when people complain about difficulty, it's important to consider the scource.

At this point it seems Kingsisle is trying to provide the biggest challenge possible, but when a new world happens, they'll have to outdo that challenge, which I'm guessing is hard for both them and the players.

So I've been led to come up with a new principle for game theory. When your game is constantly getting new endgame content, the difficulty should be made with the intention of having something harder after it, unless of course, you intend for it to be the true final content (which could, you know, might happen someday).

Delver
Mar 29, 2012
237
Your assumptions are many. I am one of the people who complained that Mirage could have been more difficult and is in fact still too easy. Actually, I already ended my membership out of boredom and lack of challenge. I don't use crowns to buy my way through the game at all. The most common use of my crowns is for stitching. Try not to assume, you know what they say about that.
Amber

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
AmberRavenSong7 on Dec 18, 2016 wrote:
Your assumptions are many. I am one of the people who complained that Mirage could have been more difficult and is in fact still too easy. Actually, I already ended my membership out of boredom and lack of challenge. I don't use crowns to buy my way through the game at all. The most common use of my crowns is for stitching. Try not to assume, you know what they say about that.
Amber
the thing is, you can create your own "challenges".
(that's what pvp is for.)

if you want a "challenge" in pve, you still have tons of options: unequip your perfect pet. don't use shadow magic. load your deck with only low-pip spells and go farm the rat in nothing but bazaar gear... then, perhaps, you'll understand what it's like for people who are having a hard time.

to be clear, i am not struggling. i'm lucky enough to have decent gear, a handful of friends i trust, and the time to quest with them, since our 4-hour time difference is a non-issue during my winter break. as much of a slog as certain things are, we end up having a blast because the three of us (sometimes 4) are in it together. but i know that not everyone has those things, and i don't expect kingsisle to cater to me because i do have them.

as i've always said, the worlds themselves should be doable by everyone and annoying cheaty instances do not belong in the main storyline. if ki wants to spit out a bunch of truly optional dungeons, so that the hardcore players can have their "challenge", then fine. just don't force it on everyone else.

i seem to recall you making quite a few assumptions about casual players as well, amber. i'm sure i don't need to quote specifics; just keep that in mind.

-von
118

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1475
"Annoying cheaty instances?"

I didn't use henchmen until recently and no wizard gets a minion until they have leveled up a bit. Some schools wait even longer for their minions.

It isn't cheating if it's written into the gameplay.
It's a game. It's entertainment.
To me, cheating is a hugely serious accusation - like SAT cheating to get into a college you couldn't have, or cheating on an exam when everyone else studied - neither of which I ever did.

If I want to use a henchman it's part of the game to do so. I haven't griped about gameplay being too easy and I don't judge whether or not anyone else plays the same way I do.

It's a game. It's entertainment.

Explorer
Jul 01, 2009
87
AmberRavenSong7 on Dec 18, 2016 wrote:
Your assumptions are many. I am one of the people who complained that Mirage could have been more difficult and is in fact still too easy. Actually, I already ended my membership out of boredom and lack of challenge. I don't use crowns to buy my way through the game at all. The most common use of my crowns is for stitching. Try not to assume, you know what they say about that.
Amber
Sorry that you feel that way, but that decision is all yours. You, at least, will always know that you will be able to finish content and see all the worlds due to your like of, and ability to deal with, the difficulty. Not so for the average player. Many of them stop playing because they get stuck (ie. the decision is made for them), or because of various reasons that are due to the fact that they are casual (original target audience). They find the difficulty and the farming with horrible RNG to be a terrible slog, not the great fun that you seem to think it is. By looking at these boards, I would have to say more people fall in the average player status than not.

This game was originally targeted to a casual, family audience, so of course those players are going to complain when the "challenges" make it almost unplayable for them. There are very few games aimed at the more casual player, so those players are going to fight to keep this one. By what you say, the game is not unplayable for you, just boring. This could just be that this game isn't the right fit for you. There are so many hardcore games out there to choose from. You might find one more to your liking.

The hardcore knew going in, that this was a more casual, family type game. Yet, they continued to stay and play. That's great, but they need to realize that they play the game as it was intended to be from the start, not try to change it buy demanding harder and harder challenges. (before I am misunderstood here, I understand that difficulty should increase in each world, just not to the extent it is now).

As has been mentioned over and over again, the hardcore can make their own challenges to spice up the game for them, but the average player cannot make this game less of a slog. Since this game was originally designed for the casual audience they have a valid complaint about the tedious difficulty.

Delver
Jul 24, 2015
245
average moe on Dec 9, 2016 wrote:
So there are these people who solve every problem by throwing crowns at it. They buy potions and henchmen as if they don't know they're using real money. Then they start complaining that the game is too easy, because they've given themselves an unfair advantage. As a result Kingsisle tries to make things hard enough to challenge those kinds of people, which isn't good for the people who don't buy their way to victory.

So firstly, when people complain about difficulty, it's important to consider the scource.

At this point it seems Kingsisle is trying to provide the biggest challenge possible, but when a new world happens, they'll have to outdo that challenge, which I'm guessing is hard for both them and the players.

So I've been led to come up with a new principle for game theory. When your game is constantly getting new endgame content, the difficulty should be made with the intention of having something harder after it, unless of course, you intend for it to be the true final content (which could, you know, might happen someday).
I'm with you as far as game difficulty goes.

As far as your characterization of challenge-seeking players: you're wrong. The reason is that it isn't winning that's important to these players - it's winning against a system that makes you think and work for it. Spending crowns runs counter to this. In fact, I've seen casual players complain that they cannot win in Mirage by spending crowns. The AI just isn't that good for pets and henchmen.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
SparkleTude on Dec 21, 2016 wrote:
"Annoying cheaty instances?"

I didn't use henchmen until recently and no wizard gets a minion until they have leveled up a bit. Some schools wait even longer for their minions.

It isn't cheating if it's written into the gameplay.
It's a game. It's entertainment.
To me, cheating is a hugely serious accusation - like SAT cheating to get into a college you couldn't have, or cheating on an exam when everyone else studied - neither of which I ever did.

If I want to use a henchman it's part of the game to do so. I haven't griped about gameplay being too easy and I don't judge whether or not anyone else plays the same way I do.

It's a game. It's entertainment.
please read my post again; nowhere in it did i mention henchmen, or people who use them.

"okay. then what do you mean by 'cheat instance', von?"

well, we players have established rules that determine how we play the game; we can work within those rules, but we cannot bypass them completely, as bosses can. that's why they are called cheats.

bosses (ie malistaire the undying in azteca, young morganthe, mithraya, belloq, tymen nightflame, ghost dog, kravenly, g.d., and the list goes on) who do not play by the rules are called "cheating" bosses for that exact reason: they don't play by the rules. and these are all main-arc bosses, non-optional content that even the most casual player must face to progress.

and yes, it's a game. but games should be fun~ they shouldn't require us to research every, single battle. i have enough to study, without adding pages of boss cheats to that list. and that's why i think that these sorts of instances do not belong in the main storyline, and never have.

-v.
119

Armiger
Feb 25, 2009
2425
Black Pearl on Dec 21, 2016 wrote:
Sorry that you feel that way, but that decision is all yours. You, at least, will always know that you will be able to finish content and see all the worlds due to your like of, and ability to deal with, the difficulty. Not so for the average player. Many of them stop playing because they get stuck (ie. the decision is made for them), or because of various reasons that are due to the fact that they are casual (original target audience). They find the difficulty and the farming with horrible RNG to be a terrible slog, not the great fun that you seem to think it is. By looking at these boards, I would have to say more people fall in the average player status than not.

This game was originally targeted to a casual, family audience, so of course those players are going to complain when the "challenges" make it almost unplayable for them. There are very few games aimed at the more casual player, so those players are going to fight to keep this one. By what you say, the game is not unplayable for you, just boring. This could just be that this game isn't the right fit for you. There are so many hardcore games out there to choose from. You might find one more to your liking.

The hardcore knew going in, that this was a more casual, family type game. Yet, they continued to stay and play. That's great, but they need to realize that they play the game as it was intended to be from the start, not try to change it buy demanding harder and harder challenges. (before I am misunderstood here, I understand that difficulty should increase in each world, just not to the extent it is now).

As has been mentioned over and over again, the hardcore can make their own challenges to spice up the game for them, but the average player cannot make this game less of a slog. Since this game was originally designed for the casual audience they have a valid complaint about the tedious difficulty.
Well Said.

With what you and @Dr Von have both stated as well as others, Hardcore players can make their own challenges by downgrading their gear and pets. The casual family players can't make the game easier and many don't have the time to farm for hours for the best gear or train the best pets.

A few years ago, several of us, most of which are casual to average players, downgraded the gear to gear found in Wizard City just for fun and ran a few quests to see just what we could or couldn't do. A challenge? Yes. It puts things in a different light when you know there are others who struggle trying to play a game that is geared to the casual family audience.

I am no where near a hardcore player, and barely average. I don't have the best gear in the game and I do train pets to at least get some decent damage and resist and hopefully Fairy Friend (which seems to be nerfed). I still have a few friends that play but our schedules no longer work for us to run together. I now dual box and in some cases, even that is difficult.

So the answer is really simple, IF you find the game to easy, the start DOWNGRADING your gear and pets and you will get a challenge. Hopefully, it will also help the hardcore players understand what casual players go through.

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
Black Pearl on Dec 21, 2016 wrote:
Sorry that you feel that way, but that decision is all yours. You, at least, will always know that you will be able to finish content and see all the worlds due to your like of, and ability to deal with, the difficulty. Not so for the average player. Many of them stop playing because they get stuck (ie. the decision is made for them), or because of various reasons that are due to the fact that they are casual (original target audience). They find the difficulty and the farming with horrible RNG to be a terrible slog, not the great fun that you seem to think it is. By looking at these boards, I would have to say more people fall in the average player status than not.

This game was originally targeted to a casual, family audience, so of course those players are going to complain when the "challenges" make it almost unplayable for them. There are very few games aimed at the more casual player, so those players are going to fight to keep this one. By what you say, the game is not unplayable for you, just boring. This could just be that this game isn't the right fit for you. There are so many hardcore games out there to choose from. You might find one more to your liking.

The hardcore knew going in, that this was a more casual, family type game. Yet, they continued to stay and play. That's great, but they need to realize that they play the game as it was intended to be from the start, not try to change it buy demanding harder and harder challenges. (before I am misunderstood here, I understand that difficulty should increase in each world, just not to the extent it is now).

As has been mentioned over and over again, the hardcore can make their own challenges to spice up the game for them, but the average player cannot make this game less of a slog. Since this game was originally designed for the casual audience they have a valid complaint about the tedious difficulty.
You are spot on when you say portions of Mirage are a terrible slog, with tedious difficulty; and you're not alone in this opinion.

My family has played since beta, and everyone enjoys helping other players get through the most difficult game content. With Mirage, I help a greater number of players than I have in the past; with more folks asking for help because they say how much they're struggling, and what a grind some tasks in Mirage feels like.

And if a larger percentage of players are making same or similar comments; than its safe to conclude game content for these folks are a terrible slog and filled with tedious difficulty.

Historian
Nov 28, 2010
614
AmberRavenSong7 on Dec 18, 2016 wrote:
Your assumptions are many. I am one of the people who complained that Mirage could have been more difficult and is in fact still too easy. Actually, I already ended my membership out of boredom and lack of challenge. I don't use crowns to buy my way through the game at all. The most common use of my crowns is for stitching. Try not to assume, you know what they say about that.
Amber
You actually raise an interesting point.

Actually, I already ended my membership out of boredom and lack of challenge.

KI is never going to be able to please those who want an extreme challenge.

Players like me on the other hand, we're easy to please. Just give us the tools to be successful, and content that doesn't stop us in our tracks.

So basically they're chasing a market that was never theirs while turning their back on a market that they almost monopolized, and losing them both.

It just doesn't make good business sense.

Explorer
Jul 01, 2009
87
High Five Ghost on Dec 22, 2016 wrote:
You actually raise an interesting point.

Actually, I already ended my membership out of boredom and lack of challenge.

KI is never going to be able to please those who want an extreme challenge.

Players like me on the other hand, we're easy to please. Just give us the tools to be successful, and content that doesn't stop us in our tracks.

So basically they're chasing a market that was never theirs while turning their back on a market that they almost monopolized, and losing them both.

It just doesn't make good business sense.
Oh so true! If KI just stuck to trying to please the average player, it would even have been easier on them! They wouldn't have to wrack their brains so hard trying to keep up with the demands of the hardcore. Also, they wouldn't need so many complicated game mechanics to keep track of. We are easy to please in that regard. We are happy with stress being put on the story and less on the difficulty. Many of us look on this game as more of an interactive story line than anything else. With so many hardcore games out there, KI needs to step up their game or fall behind. There is only so much that can be done with a turn based game.

I know I would start spending a lot more money here if things turned around for the average player. The reason I don't spend is because I never know when I will hit the "difficulty wall" and be forced to stop playing. If I knew I didn't have to worry about that I would spend and spend. I love to spend on my games, and I spend a lot believe me! (as long as I know I won't be forced to stop playing due to getting stuck).

I can't speak for the hardcore, but I will hazard a guess that many of them really love this game. I will also hazard the guess that because of that a lot would still play, even if the content got easier, because of that love. Those that leave... well they would have probably left as soon as KI couldn't keep up with their challenge demands anyway.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
High Five Ghost on Dec 22, 2016 wrote:
You actually raise an interesting point.

Actually, I already ended my membership out of boredom and lack of challenge.

KI is never going to be able to please those who want an extreme challenge.

Players like me on the other hand, we're easy to please. Just give us the tools to be successful, and content that doesn't stop us in our tracks.

So basically they're chasing a market that was never theirs while turning their back on a market that they almost monopolized, and losing them both.

It just doesn't make good business sense.
my sentiments exactly, only you said it far better.

i (like the op, high five ghost, black pearl, brynnerofreign, and many others) am a skilled casual player. yes, i play sporadically and don't farm like it's a job, but i can strategize beyond the obvious; i have decent gear and pets, plus a small handful of friends i trust. and, when we are all on at the same time, we can easily blow through content.

that said, not everyone has those things. or there are times when our time zones don't line up and i have to do things myself. regardless, everyone should be able to complete main-arc content and gear needed for basic quest progression should not be hidden behind "optional" (and i use that term facetiously) instances designed for hardcore players.

families and adult casual players are the original target audience for this game. as high five ghost said, "just give us the tools to be successful and content that doesn't stop us in our tracks" (ie long cheat battles), and we'll be perfectly happy.

KI is never going to be able to please those who want an extreme challenge.

precisely, because this game was designed for families and adult casual players.

yet kingsisle has gotten so caught up in trying to be like every other mmorpg aimed at hardcore players (likely influenced by the failure of other 'casual' games like toontown and pirates of the caribbean online) that it's lost sight of its original goal and completely alienated its target audience.

someone needs to rethink this business model, like, yesterday.

-von