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pet training dilemma

AuthorMessage
Mastermind
Jul 04, 2010
370
I have enchanted armament that is epic at the moment, with defy storm dealer storm giver and pain giver, is it worth the risk and go up to mega or hatch again. It is the first pet i want with the talents i want that i have up to epic.

Geographer
Sep 07, 2011
823
There isn't a simple answer. It depends on how likely you are to get what you want. That depends on a few things.

- Do you know if the talent you want at mega is in the pool?
- Was that wanted talent manifested on one or both parents?

If the answer to both is yes, it's reasonable odds, if not, I'd hatch again and be sure.

The other variable is resources. If you have lots of snacks and energy, you may not mind some risk. If you have limited snacks, or hate training, you might want a safer bet. If you have a sub, waiting for double EXP makes mega training a bit less painful.

Good luck!

Armiger
Jan 18, 2010
2280
If you're unsure about your pet's pool or even it's parents, I recommend hatching again.

Just in case.

Then raise the offspring to ancient (epic to be safe).

If that pet is okay (talents you're wanting), you can take the risk and raise your epic pet to mega.

That way, should your original pet fail, you've a backup to use for future hatches.


Armiger
Aug 03, 2014
2101
Ok I have 2 different lines of thought based on assumptions. I'll say the assumption first and then my thoughts

1. Assuming this pet is for personal use and hatching it out is not important:

The main question here would be - Do you have a spell-proof jewel you can add if it fails to achieve proof at mega?

If you DO have a proof jewel available and the above assumptions are correct, I'd yolo it and see if I get lucky. If I do, great. If I don't then I'd keep training to ultra and jewel proof.

If you DON'T have a proof jewel available make sure to have a safe hatch to turn to if it fails at mega. A safe hatch is a pet that has the desired stats, pool and body and has no fail talents manifested.

2. Assuming this pet is for personal use but ALSO for hatching out (it's important for perfect manifested talents so other people want to hatch with it):

Definitely do a safety hatch before taking it up because failing to get proof would be very disappointing and could set you back multiple hatches.

Summary:

Basically assess the level of disappointment you will have if it fails to manifest proof at mega. If he will still be a pet you're happy with and can enjoy using then taking him up without precautions is a quick way to see what he has at mega. If you would be gutted he didn't get proof then make a safety hatch to use when you try over again.

Feel free to ask anything you need to or to clarify my assumptions so we have a better idea of your situation - eg jewel availability; whether your resources are low, medium or high; the level of your wizard who will use it; your highest level wizard on the account; how you feel about the prospect of it getting/not getting proof at mega...etc

I hope this is helpful!

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
"Definitely do a safety hatch before taking it up because failing to get proof would be very disappointing and could set you back multiple hatches."

I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think the point was missed. It wouldn't set back multiple hatches. Hatches from this specific pet would produce the same range of outcomes regardless of the level to which it was trained. You can train a "fail" and get exactly the same results as if you stopped training before the "bad" talent manifested. Under-training doesn't prevent higher level talents from passing or manifesting.

You're risking only the training to mega.

I realize lots of people swear by "safety" pets, but it's based on a statistically unsupported premise. Do it if you want and it works for you. I never do it and don't think it's necessary.

However, it's still safer to hatch again and make sure the talent you want is present in the pool, and strong from at least one parent. The real benefit to sequential hatching is confirming you have desired talents 'hot' before training to higher levels.

Armiger
Aug 03, 2014
2101
Prince of Shadows on Mar 8, 2019 wrote:
"Definitely do a safety hatch before taking it up because failing to get proof would be very disappointing and could set you back multiple hatches."

I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I think the point was missed. It wouldn't set back multiple hatches. Hatches from this specific pet would produce the same range of outcomes regardless of the level to which it was trained. You can train a "fail" and get exactly the same results as if you stopped training before the "bad" talent manifested. Under-training doesn't prevent higher level talents from passing or manifesting.

You're risking only the training to mega.

I realize lots of people swear by "safety" pets, but it's based on a statistically unsupported premise. Do it if you want and it works for you. I never do it and don't think it's necessary.

However, it's still safer to hatch again and make sure the talent you want is present in the pool, and strong from at least one parent. The real benefit to sequential hatching is confirming you have desired talents 'hot' before training to higher levels.
Well that's quite confusing.

You just took one sentence out of a list of scenarios to imply I'm only advocating safe hatching, then told me it's bad advice because '...it's based on a statistically unsupported premise' (which means yoloing it is also not statistically supported), then back-tracked in your last paragraph to say that under the circumstance I described for that advice you advise the same...even mentioning making talents 'strong from at least one parent' and 'desired talents hot'.

These are exactly the same things I've been talking about and for some reason you've taken to quoting me and telling me my opinion and method is wrong...but you've just said the same thing. It feels like you just want to pick an argument with me. Have I done something to offend you or upset you? I certainly haven't intended to, please let me know so I can at least apologise and try to put it right.

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
Oh goodness, no offense intended. Allow me to clarify.

I quoted one sentence because that contained the specific detail I wanted to address. I agree with your general advice, and appreciate all you do here to help. You (Victoria) are a lovely poster and player, and a marvelous sharer of pets. Thanks for all that! I'm differing on a very small point only, but I think it's one that scares and confuses a lot of folks, so it's worth talking about.

Sequential hatching is generally good advice, and produces reliable results. I think the path you are recommending will usually work well, and is what many of us do, or very close. My concern, which is not at all personal, is that "safety" hatching is sometimes misinterpreted in ways that make players afraid to train pets. That leads to stress, and sometimes unnecessary hatching and training.

A pet that has exactly what you want is always the best choice to hatch with. Ideally, your own pet that's as close to that is your best option. However we go to the hatchery with the pets we have, not the ones we want. A pet that has manifested an unwanted talent at mega may be a 'fail' from the standpoint of getting what you want, but can still be used to hatch, and will produce the same results as if you had hatched with it before mega. There's usually no need to go further backwards.

Remember the iron law of pets: Everything about your pet is determined when it hatches. Nothing we do after can change anything. We unlock talents by training, but which those are, and what the hidden ones are that pass in hatches, are all already set.

If you aren't sure that all the talents are there yet, by all means stop training and hatch again, as has been said. But if you think all the slots have passed, and you have seen ONLY wanted talents manifest for a few generations, training further risks only the snacks and energy you use, not progress to this point. Conversely, doing another hatch doesn't hurt. If you feel safer doing it and want to invest the gold, that's fine, but the odds stop improving beyond a certain point.

TL;DR: "Fails" happen, but can be overcome, and probably isn't a total loss. Do work slowly toward the goal, rather than trying to one-shot, but don't be afraid to train once you have the stats and talents combined.

In the OP's case, if Proof is in the pool, and was expressed on one or both parents (as Grace said) there's no great risk in training. If it gets proof at mega, done. If it doesn't, add it on a jewel or hatch again.

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers,
Blaze.

Armiger
Aug 03, 2014
2101
Prince of Shadows on Mar 12, 2019 wrote:
Oh goodness, no offense intended. Allow me to clarify.

I quoted one sentence because that contained the specific detail I wanted to address. I agree with your general advice, and appreciate all you do here to help. You (Victoria) are a lovely poster and player, and a marvelous sharer of pets. Thanks for all that! I'm differing on a very small point only, but I think it's one that scares and confuses a lot of folks, so it's worth talking about.

Sequential hatching is generally good advice, and produces reliable results. I think the path you are recommending will usually work well, and is what many of us do, or very close. My concern, which is not at all personal, is that "safety" hatching is sometimes misinterpreted in ways that make players afraid to train pets. That leads to stress, and sometimes unnecessary hatching and training.

A pet that has exactly what you want is always the best choice to hatch with. Ideally, your own pet that's as close to that is your best option. However we go to the hatchery with the pets we have, not the ones we want. A pet that has manifested an unwanted talent at mega may be a 'fail' from the standpoint of getting what you want, but can still be used to hatch, and will produce the same results as if you had hatched with it before mega. There's usually no need to go further backwards.

Remember the iron law of pets: Everything about your pet is determined when it hatches. Nothing we do after can change anything. We unlock talents by training, but which those are, and what the hidden ones are that pass in hatches, are all already set.

If you aren't sure that all the talents are there yet, by all means stop training and hatch again, as has been said. But if you think all the slots have passed, and you have seen ONLY wanted talents manifest for a few generations, training further risks only the snacks and energy you use, not progress to this point. Conversely, doing another hatch doesn't hurt. If you feel safer doing it and want to invest the gold, that's fine, but the odds stop improving beyond a certain point.

TL;DR: "Fails" happen, but can be overcome, and probably isn't a total loss. Do work slowly toward the goal, rather than trying to one-shot, but don't be afraid to train once you have the stats and talents combined.

In the OP's case, if Proof is in the pool, and was expressed on one or both parents (as Grace said) there's no great risk in training. If it gets proof at mega, done. If it doesn't, add it on a jewel or hatch again.

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers,
Blaze.
Phew! Thank you! I was racking my brain trying to think if I'd badly worded something and inadvertently upset you. I'm glad I haven't!

Yes, I get what you're saying. I'm not sure I can agree but I can accept you might be right. In my hatching I've found that manifested talents appear more likely to manifest again and when I've been trying to avoid something when I have it manifested in a parent it takes quite a lot of hatching to replace the parent with one that doesn't have it...but when I do, it stops popping up as much.

Once I've achieved my goal I always train my parent pets too. I can't resist the temptation to see what they would have got if I'd yolo-ed them Occasionally I find a parent who would have been perfect but more often they get the talent that was anoying me at ancient/epic.

I know it's not proof that the mechanic works on 'manifested talents' rather than 'talents that will manifest', but from anecdotal 'evidence' (flimsiest kind of 'evidence') that's what I've experienced. I wish KI would just tell us so we know for sure!

Based on the OP's line, 'It is the first pet I want with the talents I want that I have up to epic', I made the assumption the player is not a big hatcher and could be training a pet that has in many ways 'got lucky'. I just want the OP to achieve a lovely pet