I've been playing PVP for awhile, but I'm finally salty enough to make a plea to KI to rework PVP. There are a ton of issues that I believe need to be fixed. Also, though this isn't a rework, I really hope you publish data/statistics on PVP so we can see how balanced/unbalanced it actually is:
1) Make PVP turn-based. Going first is such an incredible advantage in PVP. 2nd has to play a guessing/RNG game of what 1st is going to cast, while 1st doesn't have this same disadvantage. A well-timed tower shield/weaver from 1st can be game ending, since 2nd just wasted their pips on a weak hit. 1st can cast a burning rampage on 2nd, and with basically no possible counter play. All this talk about burning rampage brings me to point 2...
2) Nerf some cards. Rampage, loremaster, manaburn, supernova, etc. are incredibly OP. Though no statistics have been released (pls release those though), I can only assume their winrates are insanely high. If not, so be it, though I do believe there to be something fundamentally wrong with all the cards. I think that all of the aforementioned cards are no fun to play against. Fizzling off a -35% accuracy debuff while getting hit each turn isn't fun. Getting rampaged into revenant from 2nd with practically no counterplay isn't enjoyable. These cards need reworks. Also, though this card isn't necessarily OP, please ban insane bolt from PVP. It's incredibly tilting getting smacked with 1000 damage for 2 pips and not that rewarding when your opponent kills themselves 20% of the time. Again, though it's not necessarily OP, leaving a match up to a (weighted) coin flip isn't that much fun either.
3) Rework Glendemming's. Recently, I was trying to make a warlord climb on a lower-level character. I hadn't done PVP on the character before (and was therefore private), though I had an optimal gear, pet, deck, and all the necessary lore-spells (though optimal is a subjective word, it *should* have been good enough for private). I had the "search for players outside my skill-level" button unchecked. Basically each match, I got paired with a warlord wearing glemdemming gear. Because of their insane resist, yet good enough damage, I kept on losing. My issue with this is how snowball-y this makes PVP. My opponents beat me because they had gear that was impossible for me to obtain. The only way for me to obtain it was to beat opponents wearing this OP, yet unavailable gear. I think I see why KI introduced all of this warlord-only type gear: to reward players who are good at PVP. But my only request would be to make this gear PVE only instead of PVP only. This way, players who are good enough at PVP will be able to have their exclusive, OP gear, but not at the expense of other players trying to climb in PVP.
4) Speaking of gear, I don't think that the best PVP gear should be crowns/bundle-only (looking at boots, wands, and jade especially). Though KI needs to make money, I feel like this is unfair to the players who only want to spend money on a membership (or are completely ftp). One crowns-only type gear I do support is energy gear. Though incredibly useful, it's not completely necessary for players to have this type of gear if they want to excel in the game. It's more a matter of convenience. But by forcing players to buy the immortal's lore pack wands, professor's hoard pack boots, etc., it gives players who don't want to spend money a clear PVP disadvantage. I think a good compromise would be something similar to lore-spells (though I guess in a reversed order for release). In addition to offering an easy, less time-consuming way to get this OP gear, I think KI should add some Loremaster-esque boss that drops them as well. This way both ftp and paying players would be on an equal playing field for PVP.
5) Change tournament rewards. Excluding max level, tournaments are kind of dead. I try and sign up for tournaments on my non-max characters and get hit with the: "oops! Diego couldn't place you in a bracket!" message. This is incredibly frustrating for someone who enjoys PVP, but doesn't necessarily want to level up their character to max at the current moment. I think this is indicative of a more general problem (though I'm not exactly sure how it could be fixed), which is that people only seem to care about max level PVP. A couple of suggestions to make tournaments more popular would be to drop crowns in addition to arena tickets. For those who aren't into PVP much, or already have more than enough arena tickets on their character, I think this would get more people into tournaments as a whole. Also, it would somewhat address problem 4 (though I don't think fully).
I've been playing PVP for awhile, but I'm finally salty enough to make a plea to KI to rework PVP. There are a ton of issues that I believe need to be fixed. Also, though this isn't a rework, I really hope you publish data/statistics on PVP so we can see how balanced/unbalanced it actually is:
1) Make PVP turn-based. Going first is such an incredible advantage in PVP. 2nd has to play a guessing/RNG game of what 1st is going to cast, while 1st doesn't have this same disadvantage. A well-timed tower shield/weaver from 1st can be game ending, since 2nd just wasted their pips on a weak hit. 1st can cast a burning rampage on 2nd, and with basically no possible counter play. All this talk about burning rampage brings me to point 2...
2) Nerf some cards. Rampage, loremaster, manaburn, supernova, etc. are incredibly OP. Though no statistics have been released (pls release those though), I can only assume their winrates are insanely high. If not, so be it, though I do believe there to be something fundamentally wrong with all the cards. I think that all of the aforementioned cards are no fun to play against. Fizzling off a -35% accuracy debuff while getting hit each turn isn't fun. Getting rampaged into revenant from 2nd with practically no counterplay isn't enjoyable. These cards need reworks. Also, though this card isn't necessarily OP, please ban insane bolt from PVP. It's incredibly tilting getting smacked with 1000 damage for 2 pips and not that rewarding when your opponent kills themselves 20% of the time. Again, though it's not necessarily OP, leaving a match up to a (weighted) coin flip isn't that much fun either.
3) Rework Glendemming's. Recently, I was trying to make a warlord climb on a lower-level character. I hadn't done PVP on the character before (and was therefore private), though I had an optimal gear, pet, deck, and all the necessary lore-spells (though optimal is a subjective word, it *should* have been good enough for private). I had the "search for players outside my skill-level" button unchecked. Basically each match, I got paired with a warlord wearing glemdemming gear. Because of their insane resist, yet good enough damage, I kept on losing. My issue with this is how snowball-y this makes PVP. My opponents beat me because they had gear that was impossible for me to obtain. The only way for me to obtain it was to beat opponents wearing this OP, yet unavailable gear. I think I see why KI introduced all of this warlord-only type gear: to reward players who are good at PVP. But my only request would be to make this gear PVE only instead of PVP only. This way, players who are good enough at PVP will be able to have their exclusive, OP gear, but not at the expense of other players trying to climb in PVP.
4) Speaking of gear, I don't think that the best PVP gear should be crowns/bundle-only (looking at boots, wands, and jade especially). Though KI needs to make money, I feel like this is unfair to the players who only want to spend money on a membership (or are completely ftp). One crowns-only type gear I do support is energy gear. Though incredibly useful, it's not completely necessary for players to have this type of gear if they want to excel in the game. It's more a matter of convenience. But by forcing players to buy the immortal's lore pack wands, professor's hoard pack boots, etc., it gives players who don't want to spend money a clear PVP disadvantage. I think a good compromise would be something similar to lore-spells (though I guess in a reversed order for release). In addition to offering an easy, less time-consuming way to get this OP gear, I think KI should add some Loremaster-esque boss that drops them as well. This way both ftp and paying players would be on an equal playing field for PVP.
5) Change tournament rewards. Excluding max level, tournaments are kind of dead. I try and sign up for tournaments on my non-max characters and get hit with the: "oops! Diego couldn't place you in a bracket!" message. This is incredibly frustrating for someone who enjoys PVP, but doesn't necessarily want to level up their character to max at the current moment. I think this is indicative of a more general problem (though I'm not exactly sure how it could be fixed), which is that people only seem to care about max level PVP. A couple of suggestions to make tournaments more popular would be to drop crowns in addition to arena tickets. For those who aren't into PVP much, or already have more than enough arena tickets on their character, I think this would get more people into tournaments as a whole. Also, it would somewhat address problem 4 (though I don't think fully).
I really hope you consider all of this feedback!
Thanks Travis for this list, excellent descriptions and ideas! I'm not familiar with some of the details for the cards and such (tournament rewards I can relate), will send the rest to the team to review.
The top priority list rework to spells effects should be as follows:
Efreet- Remove weakness keep damage add a trap +25% trap instead. A spell that does 895 damage for only 4 power pip has no right to have any effect of a weakness or mantle place on it.
Burning rampage- Change x2 round damage into 3 round dot. Since fire are mains for their damage overtime i will not take it away from them. A spell that offers 0 counter play from second due to its high 2 round burst nature is just too much to deal with.
Lore Master-Remove mantle, keep -20% weakness lower damage to 420 base. As it's been said countless of time before 2 de-buff on a spell is highly oppressive and offers little to to chance of fair play, and its still better than life luminous weaver of 370 damage -25% weakness.
Guardian Spirit- There is no other school able to come back from dying but if this was the case, should only be limit to 1 use(PVP only)
Abominable weaver- Remove shield add a +40% blade instead. For a school that already relies on mass resistance and shield set ups, including having access to brace(-20% incoming damage) Should not have a -75% tower shield at all. It become real trouble some when you already have to shrike and having to deal with a wall of potential spams. Not only that my i remind you ice isn't weak anymore in terms of power spike.
Bale Frost- Reduce 35% damage boost to 10%(PVP only). This spell is easily accessible by ice that offers 35% damage boots on all outgoing damage for only 2 pips. The main issue i have with this spell is the fact it can make an ice with just 105% damage at Max Level gain an increase damage of 140%! like what???? So your telling me that ice can have mass resist and storm damage at the same time???
Insane bolt needs a rework-Change into double hit for 3 pips, 250storm damage with 250 moon damage) with no storm penalty. Storm is suppose to be that school that puts pressure on all school because its the only school that has the lowest health. 4.5k~5k. This would not only help them neutralize set shield spams it also helps for their lack of damage over time. There is no excuse or fun in a kill your self spell the jokes over that's not insane that's down right stupid.
These are priority changes to these oppressive spells needed so far to balance pvp.
The top priority list rework to spells effects should be as follows:
Efreet- Remove weakness keep damage add a trap +25% trap instead. A spell that does 895 damage for only 4 power pip has no right to have any effect of a weakness or mantle place on it.
Burning rampage- Change x2 round damage into 3 round dot. Since fire are mains for their damage overtime i will not take it away from them. A spell that offers 0 counter play from second due to its high 2 round burst nature is just too much to deal with.
Lore Master-Remove mantle, keep -20% weakness lower damage to 420 base. As it's been said countless of time before 2 de-buff on a spell is highly oppressive and offers little to to chance of fair play, and its still better than life luminous weaver of 370 damage -25% weakness.
Guardian Spirit- There is no other school able to come back from dying but if this was the case, should only be limit to 1 use(PVP only)
Abominable weaver- Remove shield add a +40% blade instead. For a school that already relies on mass resistance and shield set ups, including having access to brace(-20% incoming damage) Should not have a -75% tower shield at all. It become real trouble some when you already have to shrike and having to deal with a wall of potential spams. Not only that my i remind you ice isn't weak anymore in terms of power spike.
Bale Frost- Reduce 35% damage boost to 10%(PVP only). This spell is easily accessible by ice that offers 35% damage boots on all outgoing damage for only 2 pips. The main issue i have with this spell is the fact it can make an ice with just 105% damage at Max Level gain an increase damage of 140%! like what???? So your telling me that ice can have mass resist and storm damage at the same time???
Insane bolt needs a rework-Change into double hit for 3 pips, 250storm damage with 250 moon damage) with no storm penalty. Storm is suppose to be that school that puts pressure on all school because its the only school that has the lowest health. 4.5k~5k. This would not only help them neutralize set shield spams it also helps for their lack of damage over time. There is no excuse or fun in a kill your self spell the jokes over that's not insane that's down right stupid.
These are priority changes to these oppressive spells needed so far to balance pvp.
As a long time pvp player with quite a bit of experience, and warlord multiple characters I respectfully disagree with these proposed spell changes. There is a difference between something that is broken and something that is just a really good spell. An example of something that is broken would be the random factor of shadow pips and the fact that one player can get 3 before the other player gets one. Another example of something that is broken would be going second. The player going first has a clear advantage over the player going second. These spells that your suggesting be changed are just good pvp spells, each class has them. It is no fun when spells get nerfed. Most spells are only overpowered from first any ways. This brings back to the point that it is the turn system that is broken not the spells them selves. Burning rampage is not counter able from second. So people say its broken. The solution is to fix the turn system rather then nerf a spell. Your comment about balefrost I dont agree with as it would make the spell useless and you can just change the bubble to make that spell be useless anyways with the current spell how it is. Once again the turn system plays a factor in this as the player going first can put up a bubble and use it before the person going second has the time to react that they put up the bubble and change it. Turn based would fix it. Almost all of these spells are not the problem in pvp, it is other things such as the mechanics of the game such as the turn system favoring the player going first, and the randomness of shadow pips. Granted there are some spells like fire beetle that are unbalanced because if you look at fuel it is 3 25% traps for 2 pips while fire beetle is 3 35% traps AND a hit for the same cost of 2 pips. This is an example of a spell that needs changed because it is simply an illogical spell.
As a long time pvp player with quite a bit of experience, and warlord multiple characters I respectfully disagree with these proposed spell changes. There is a difference between something that is broken and something that is just a really good spell. An example of something that is broken would be the random factor of shadow pips and the fact that one player can get 3 before the other player gets one. Another example of something that is broken would be going second. The player going first has a clear advantage over the player going second. These spells that your suggesting be changed are just good pvp spells, each class has them. It is no fun when spells get nerfed. Most spells are only overpowered from first any ways. This brings back to the point that it is the turn system that is broken not the spells them selves. Burning rampage is not counter able from second. So people say its broken. The solution is to fix the turn system rather then nerf a spell. Your comment about balefrost I dont agree with as it would make the spell useless and you can just change the bubble to make that spell be useless anyways with the current spell how it is. Once again the turn system plays a factor in this as the player going first can put up a bubble and use it before the person going second has the time to react that they put up the bubble and change it. Turn based would fix it. Almost all of these spells are not the problem in pvp, it is other things such as the mechanics of the game such as the turn system favoring the player going first, and the randomness of shadow pips. Granted there are some spells like fire beetle that are unbalanced because if you look at fuel it is 3 25% traps for 2 pips while fire beetle is 3 35% traps AND a hit for the same cost of 2 pips. This is an example of a spell that needs changed because it is simply an illogical spell.
I mostly agree with what you said (about shadows and going first). However, I think that if a spell becomes an auto-include in every deck for the class, then it is too OP. Some spells (like rampage) would be less op if PVP was turn-based. But I still think it needs a nerf, since though the power-level would be reduced, the only real way to counter it is running triage/shift. Also, I think the strength of loremaster would stay basically the same if KI changed PVP to become turn-based. Its triple effect (reasonable damage, weakness, black mantle) is just too strong. Also, I don't agree that all schools have "really good spells." I can't really think of an equivalent for myth, life, and death.
In addition to implementing turn-based PVP and removing shadow RNG, I think that KI really does need to nerf many cards. Ideally, the PVP environment is one where multiple play-styles can survive, and one doesn't dominate (ie all balances not lore-spamming, all fires not running ramp, etc.)
That being said, however, I really hope KI releases statistics on the winrates each card/position, so we can really know how op or over/underrated these cards are.
I play the game mainly for max level PVP and I disagree. I claimed that hate it when is a myth. believe me I have tried. I have owned pretty much every piece of crown gear that there is. I have a pair of crown boots that are slightly better maybe.As best I can tell the best gear is from drops or crafted.
The main problem with PVP is that I frequently encounter opponents who are better players than me.
As a long time pvp player with quite a bit of experience, and warlord multiple characters I respectfully disagree with these proposed spell changes. There is a difference between something that is broken and something that is just a really good spell. An example of something that is broken would be the random factor of shadow pips and the fact that one player can get 3 before the other player gets one. Another example of something that is broken would be going second. The player going first has a clear advantage over the player going second. These spells that your suggesting be changed are just good pvp spells, each class has them. It is no fun when spells get nerfed. Most spells are only overpowered from first any ways. This brings back to the point that it is the turn system that is broken not the spells them selves. Burning rampage is not counter able from second. So people say its broken. The solution is to fix the turn system rather then nerf a spell. Your comment about balefrost I dont agree with as it would make the spell useless and you can just change the bubble to make that spell be useless anyways with the current spell how it is. Once again the turn system plays a factor in this as the player going first can put up a bubble and use it before the person going second has the time to react that they put up the bubble and change it. Turn based would fix it. Almost all of these spells are not the problem in pvp, it is other things such as the mechanics of the game such as the turn system favoring the player going first, and the randomness of shadow pips. Granted there are some spells like fire beetle that are unbalanced because if you look at fuel it is 3 25% traps for 2 pips while fire beetle is 3 35% traps AND a hit for the same cost of 2 pips. This is an example of a spell that needs changed because it is simply an illogical spell.
I understand your concept, but i never really have any problems going second and i can tell you ive had my fair share of trials. As a warlord on all 7 schools these proposed changes also considered taking out some sort of pressure towards certain class especially fire. Each player if not more have the same amount of chance of getting pips as a basic (6%) individually, where as the odds of shadow pips occurring can be Greater>Less than for any player if their shadow pip chance isn't 100%. As it seems the coding for shadow pips working slightly different than power pips.
Overpowered spells, in my opinion, are spells that creates an imbalance atmosphere towards the player who is affected by the effect in exchange for high damage caliber methods. For example any good fire set up into a wide open Efreet puts fire in a great advantage against any schools that's trying to set up some form of counter play. It also forces the opponent into a stall more like a mantle or stun but instead of a huge weakness. Efreet has proven to be more effective in turn base pvp than reg pvp, because it gives the caster more time to set up more playing during his time. Burning rampage is actually countable in turn base pvp another thing i picked up on during my pvp segments, because now your able to freely remove it using triage or cool down as if you were going first.
I do agree that turn base pvp do fix a lot of reg pvp issues and I would like to see it in our rank games. How ever certain spells changes that i mention above is to reduce the frequency on reliable strategies made to punish their opponent without any form of counter play
As for bale frost the nerf was intended to destroy ice ability. to achieve storm damage. Many storm basic players with Malistare gears have a minimum of 125% damage base. An ice with 105% out going damage being able to attain anything more than 110% damage is bad. Ice are not storm in fact life isn't able to go over 105% because they have no 2 pip damage bubble train spells for a reason. Life as basically ice who can heal per say. If their able to its because their using pay to win crown related gears. Such as the terror hoard pack wands. Even if one was to change the bubble, that would actually put them in a risky spot to decided whether to suffer from a wide open abominable weaver if ice had one in their possession.
I don't see fire beetle as oppressing at all as long as the weakness is removed from Efreet.
Please for the love of everything. If you make it turn base please make turns go by way faster than they do now. 30 seconds for each player is insane. Turnbased tourneys are incredibly long due to this along with the animations. Spark since you responded to this I expect a confirmation post or thoughts type message sometime soon rather then a "we'll see" approach.
Also cards aren't the only thing that need to be nerfed how about gear and Jewels. am I the only one that thinks its silly that all schools get the same amount of pierce on jewels? I mean common. I'm not saying defensive schools should only be defensive.I just think that an Ice with 130 damage shouldn't be okay with 40 something resist because they have 8k health. There's no trade-off to that.
Now before anything else. Please do something about shadow pips. This is the biggest problem in pvp by far. If you take nothing else from this Please take that one. Shadow pips define the meta and is the reason why schools are broken and schools are useless. Either the cards need to be addresssed or the chance needs to be. This ruins pvp and dimenishes the skill gap expeditiously.
Again I expect some type of announcement soon. We need to work together to decrease disappointment in this game and tap into some of the infinite potential this game has!
I forgot to mention this but I think TC play too big a role in PvP as well. I personally believe preparing your deck should be part of the battle. Along with the luck of the draw, these essential components of a card game are rarely considered. Knowing something is going to happen everytime because they'll just draw it from tc definitely diminishes skill gap. Here's to hoping this topic does not get ignored and forgotten for years to come. The Time is Now.
I forgot to mention this but I think TC play too big a role in PvP as well. I personally believe preparing your deck should be part of the battle. Along with the luck of the draw, these essential components of a card game are rarely considered. Knowing something is going to happen everytime because they'll just draw it from tc definitely diminishes skill gap. Here's to hoping this topic does not get ignored and forgotten for years to come. The Time is Now.
I agree that tc plays a big role in pvp, but i also thinks its very essential that we are able to prepare our treasure card side deck in order not to be luck dependent on draws. I have no problem with this whats so ever but i guess its just me. Skills isn't relying on luck by the way, its relying on hard earn strategies that actually works 100% of the time.
I agree that tc plays a big role in pvp, but i also thinks its very essential that we are able to prepare our treasure card side deck in order not to be luck dependent on draws. I have no problem with this whats so ever but i guess its just me. Skills isn't relying on luck by the way, its relying on hard earn strategies that actually works 100% of the time.
Are you sure deck prepping is just a luck contest? Discarding, Holding cards and Prepping how many of one spell you pack all play a factor when its just your main + side deck. TC have alot of broken utility spells that people can use whenever they feel like it. Drawing isn't entirely luck dependent to me as you have control over the probability of pulling what you want before the match even starts. TC is too big of a safety net in my opinion and hides how unprepared some players are etc being ts or debuff spamming. If this were to happen I would want some spells that are Tc only to be easier to access and put in your main deck.
Are you sure deck prepping is just a luck contest? Discarding, Holding cards and Prepping how many of one spell you pack all play a factor when its just your main + side deck. TC have alot of broken utility spells that people can use whenever they feel like it. Drawing isn't entirely luck dependent to me as you have control over the probability of pulling what you want before the match even starts. TC is too big of a safety net in my opinion and hides how unprepared some players are etc being ts or debuff spamming. If this were to happen I would want some spells that are Tc only to be easier to access and put in your main deck.
In truth i think that is a very opinionated topic, where as contradicting to your statement some do like to prepare themselves or rather rely on less luck and more guarantee strategies esp when it comes down to drawing cards. I don't feel nor do i believe in the luck of the draw like Yugioh which is prob where u get that from I believe creating a deck that can benefit in draw vs rng about 70% of the time to be the most favorable out come. Which is rely why am also hoping turn base pvp reaches rank ques. The less rng the better.
In truth i think that is a very opinionated topic, where as contradicting to your statement some do like to prepare themselves or rather rely on less luck and more guarantee strategies esp when it comes down to drawing cards. I don't feel nor do i believe in the luck of the draw like Yugioh which is prob where u get that from I believe creating a deck that can benefit in draw vs rng about 70% of the time to be the most favorable out come. Which is rely why am also hoping turn base pvp reaches rank ques. The less rng the better.
I agree with you that this topic is opinionated at the current moment. However, if KI would release actual statistics on PVP, all of this would be changed. I don't see why KI is so hesitant to do this.
I'm starting to find it kind of upsetting that KI keeps on saying that they care about PVP, but continue to do nothing about it. Nothing at all about PVP in the summer test realm notes, but instead continuing to create new PVE game types. Obviously, KI has a limited amount of resources, and it's hard to fix everything for a game this large and complex. That being said, however, releasing statistics does not take much effort at all, and many other games have done this. Also, I think we would prefer honesty (that KI is shifting its focus from PVP and moving onto other parts of the game), instead of constantly being told that KI still cares about PVP and seeing no action.
Some appreciated statistics to be released would be:
winrates for each class (from first and from second) winrates for each class with respect to how many shadow pips they get (from first and second) winrates for each card with respect to how many times they were played in a match (from first and second) winrates for each commonly-seen piece of gear/gearsets (from first and second)
Efreet- Remove weakness keep damage add a trap +25% trap instead. A spell that does 895 damage for only 4 power pip has no right to have any effect of a weakness or mantle place on it.
Lore Master-Remove mantle, keep -20% weakness lower damage to 420 base. As it's been said countless of time before 2 de-buff on a spell is highly oppressive and offers little to to chance of fair play, and its still better than life luminous weaver of 370 damage -25% weakness.
Guardian Spirit- There is no other school able to come back from dying but if this was the case, should only be limit to 1 use(PVP only)
Abominable weaver- Remove shield add a +40% blade instead. For a school that already relies on mass resistance and shield set ups, including having access to brace(-20% incoming damage) Should not have a -75% tower shield at all. It become real trouble some when you already have to shrike and having to deal with a wall of potential spams. Not only that my i remind you ice isn't weak anymore in terms of power spike.
Insane bolt needs a rework-Change into double hit for 3 pips, 250
moon damage) with no storm penalty. Storm is suppose to be that school that puts pressure on all school because its the only school that has the lowest health. 4.5k~5k. This would not only help them neutralize set shield spams it also helps for their lack of damage over time. There is no excuse or fun in a kill your self spell the jokes over that's not insane that's down right stupid.
I believe creating a deck that can benefit in draw vs rng about 70% of the time to be the most favorable out come. Which is rely why am also hoping turn base pvp reaches rank ques. The less rng the better.