People do not work for all the gear they get. Most of the time immunity is achieved through using jade gear which is from a pack. People buy their way into immunity. The pet yes you have to work for but again who actually goes in with a 3 fire ward pet ALL the time and not only when they watch other matches and find out their competitor is a fire wiz. (school was just an example here does not only apply to fire wizards)
No one is asking for people to sacrifice either here. It isn't sacrificing to expect someone to use the same gear as other people who do not have money for packs for jade gear. Knowing a strategy someone uses is also WAY different from coming in immune to someones attacks.
People can change their strategy in tournaments to fit the situation (their opponent knowing before hand what they tend to do) but they can't change their school to combat someone who makes it so that every hit you use has less than 500 damage or something along those lines. In real life no one is immune to an opponent in any sport or even card games for that matter (thinking along the lines of pokemon here but others could apply).
Knowing about your opponent is one thing, making it impossible to hurt you at all in pvp is something I have literally only seen in this online game. It isn't a problem in any other game I have ever seen. Much like a lot of aspects of pvp setting is a wiz problem only that needs fixing.
@ angellifeheart
I see the other side of it as yes certain schools can get a ton of damage and pierce but that doesn't make setting okay. Especially if you cap piercing. I agree a cap there is a good idea but if you're gonna cap pierce then setting needs to be fixed at the same time or you really have zero way to combat it.
And to be fair most of the time to get your pierce and damage that high you end up trading it off for having pretty low resist. That isn't to say that some people aren't able to balance it out so that their resist isn't completely useless but usually it's storm that manages to get their pierce and damage that high and the trade off is not only do they have low resist their health is very low as well. Basically people with that high damage and pierce are so squishy that it doesn't take much to win. Unless of course they pull a shadow pip from first, but hey that's currently max pvp nothing you can do about the rng being horrible.
"It isn't sacrificing to expect someone to use the same gear as other people who do not have money for packs for jade gear." Excuse me, it is a sacrifice, they have to buy the packs and get the luck of the draw to get that gear. If you're going to deny pack gear from everyone entering a PVP tournament, maybe we should look at how everyone is set up. Maybe we should ban everything that is used to give an advantage. You get a wand and your spells you trained for, the pet you hatched for but nothing else - no pack gear, no crafted gear - zip. How fun would that be?
"It isn't sacrificing to expect someone to use the same gear as other people who do not have money for packs for jade gear." Excuse me, it is a sacrifice, they have to buy the packs and get the luck of the draw to get that gear. If you're going to deny pack gear from everyone entering a PVP tournament, maybe we should look at how everyone is set up. Maybe we should ban everything that is used to give an advantage. You get a wand and your spells you trained for, the pet you hatched for but nothing else - no pack gear, no crafted gear - zip. How fun would that be?
Crafted gear and dropped is available to everyone which would be my point. Most people maybe have one item of pack and otherwise use crafted or dropped gear. When it comes to crafted or dropped gear everyone is able to get it so that's not exactly an advantage. If you choose to pvp before either crafting your gear or farming a boss for it then that's your own fault. The big point though is it's not a huge advantage over everyone else purely because EVERYONE can get it and use it.
It's also not pack gear in general it's just jade gear. Which is the only gear I brought up btw too. I never said all pack gear is bad. That being said though many of the crafted and dropped gears are easily comparable to pack gear. I don't believe pack gear in general is an advantage in pvp so big that it truly makes a difference in pvp. There's like a 1 or 2% difference in most of the stats. Maybe one match here or there is won or lost by that 1 to 2% but again not enough to really matter in the long run. Jade gear is what allows setters to be literally impossible to beat unless you have maximum piercing, damage, first turn, and shadow pips.
And no that's still not a sacrifice just because they have to buy the pack and get lucky. That's a choice people make to get that gear and it's not like you can't use it for its original function which is pve. KI has flat out stated they are a pve game first. Which means jade gear's intended purpose was for people to be able to put up major defense against bosses not other payers in pvp. It ISN'T asking for a sacrifice to ask people to only use jade gear in pve and use the gear everybody else uses pack, dropped, or crafted to fairly earn rank.
Also what you described wand, spells, and pet pretty much nothing else. It pretty much already exists. Pretty sure if I remember right the deckathalon strips you to your base stats, allows your pet, and since you can make your own tc, the spells you trained in tc form. It may not be pvp but people did seem to find it fun.
The tournament rules that doesn't allow pets and amulets (forgot what type of tournament it's called I don't do it much cuz I prefer quick match) is also very similar and people like it just fine as well. Granted that one allows your gear stats but again it isn't ALL gear I said was bad just jade gear that allows people to reach immunity to other schools in pvp.
"It isn't sacrificing to expect someone to use the same gear as other people who do not have money for packs for jade gear." Excuse me, it is a sacrifice, they have to buy the packs and get the luck of the draw to get that gear. If you're going to deny pack gear from everyone entering a PVP tournament, maybe we should look at how everyone is set up. Maybe we should ban everything that is used to give an advantage. You get a wand and your spells you trained for, the pet you hatched for but nothing else - no pack gear, no crafted gear - zip. How fun would that be?
it would be so so so much fun and so much better to realize your not losing against players because they have money, but your losing or winning, because of in game strategies through in game earn gears and spells.
Crafted gear and dropped is available to everyone which would be my point. Most people maybe have one item of pack and otherwise use crafted or dropped gear. When it comes to crafted or dropped gear everyone is able to get it so that's not exactly an advantage. If you choose to pvp before either crafting your gear or farming a boss for it then that's your own fault. The big point though is it's not a huge advantage over everyone else purely because EVERYONE can get it and use it.
It's also not pack gear in general it's just jade gear. Which is the only gear I brought up btw too. I never said all pack gear is bad. That being said though many of the crafted and dropped gears are easily comparable to pack gear. I don't believe pack gear in general is an advantage in pvp so big that it truly makes a difference in pvp. There's like a 1 or 2% difference in most of the stats. Maybe one match here or there is won or lost by that 1 to 2% but again not enough to really matter in the long run. Jade gear is what allows setters to be literally impossible to beat unless you have maximum piercing, damage, first turn, and shadow pips.
And no that's still not a sacrifice just because they have to buy the pack and get lucky. That's a choice people make to get that gear and it's not like you can't use it for its original function which is pve. KI has flat out stated they are a pve game first. Which means jade gear's intended purpose was for people to be able to put up major defense against bosses not other payers in pvp. It ISN'T asking for a sacrifice to ask people to only use jade gear in pve and use the gear everybody else uses pack, dropped, or crafted to fairly earn rank.
Also what you described wand, spells, and pet pretty much nothing else. It pretty much already exists. Pretty sure if I remember right the deckathalon strips you to your base stats, allows your pet, and since you can make your own tc, the spells you trained in tc form. It may not be pvp but people did seem to find it fun.
The tournament rules that doesn't allow pets and amulets (forgot what type of tournament it's called I don't do it much cuz I prefer quick match) is also very similar and people like it just fine as well. Granted that one allows your gear stats but again it isn't ALL gear I said was bad just jade gear that allows people to reach immunity to other schools in pvp.
You're literally the only person on my thread who can debate thoroughly and thoughtfully with logic keeping in mind how not everyone can afford gear to win, I appreciate it. I know a lot of people are gonna say there's nothing to stop setters in tournaments but there are solutions ki could do to prevent it and make setting harder when it comes to immunity. I read someone else's thread that perhaps when people set their gear or pets up at the beginning of the tournament, they have to keep on the same pet and gear through the end of the tournament and be disenabled to change it, similar to classic tournaments that you can't wear an athame or amulet, which I honestly think ki should test this out. It's one thing to stack up set shields but the immunity and ridiculous resist for one particular school has to go.
Or, let me just say this cap resist at 50% and pierce at 25%. Problem solve? cause when it comes down to shields people are always gonna carry set shield -75%. And shrike is already broken so yup.
You're literally the only person on my thread who can debate thoroughly and thoughtfully with logic keeping in mind how not everyone can afford gear to win, I appreciate it. I know a lot of people are gonna say there's nothing to stop setters in tournaments but there are solutions ki could do to prevent it and make setting harder when it comes to immunity. I read someone else's thread that perhaps when people set their gear or pets up at the beginning of the tournament, they have to keep on the same pet and gear through the end of the tournament and be disenabled to change it, similar to classic tournaments that you can't wear an athame or amulet, which I honestly think ki should test this out. It's one thing to stack up set shields but the immunity and ridiculous resist for one particular school has to go.
Look dude, this argument has gone on long enough. People that have "ridiculous resist for one particular school" know what they are doing in pvp. If they are smart enough to have gear farmed for resist to every school, they deserve to win against you. In my eyes, if they got immunity or high resist, all power to them. It should be your job to analyze the situation and deal with the problem. Find the best possible way to counter them. For example, if you are so worried about others setting, try making them run out of cards. Start stalling them out until they can play nothing anymore. If they are a strong school (fire is really good this time around) then stack shields, dispels, weaknesses, and mantles. And, if you know people are going to set, why don't you carry shatters? Wait for them to use a lot of shields and then take all of those out. Also, if you can assess the problem from its roots, you could end up being top of the leaderboard. If you can't take the heat of the oven, step out of the kitchen buddy. I'm not trying to start anything with you but this is just pointless.
Look dude, this argument has gone on long enough. People that have "ridiculous resist for one particular school" know what they are doing in pvp. If they are smart enough to have gear farmed for resist to every school, they deserve to win against you. In my eyes, if they got immunity or high resist, all power to them. It should be your job to analyze the situation and deal with the problem. Find the best possible way to counter them. For example, if you are so worried about others setting, try making them run out of cards. Start stalling them out until they can play nothing anymore. If they are a strong school (fire is really good this time around) then stack shields, dispels, weaknesses, and mantles. And, if you know people are going to set, why don't you carry shatters? Wait for them to use a lot of shields and then take all of those out. Also, if you can assess the problem from its roots, you could end up being top of the leaderboard. If you can't take the heat of the oven, step out of the kitchen buddy. I'm not trying to start anything with you but this is just pointless.
Which is a big difference yes but when it comes down to crown related pay to win gears then ill have to disagree with your concept. For every action comes a reaction for every play style should have a counter play style this creates the balance. If shrike only last 3 rounds then Mass resist should only last 3 rounds do you see where am going with this? Stalling games should never be apart of pvp which also should go towards players passing for one hour they should be penalized for this or give a maximum penalty where both parties ends match in draw but the one who initiated the most damage with the (.exception of healing wins the match). In other words healing doesn't count towards the initial damage count. This will completely destroy the jade meta/setters in rank pvp matches.
Which is a big difference yes but when it comes down to crown related pay to win gears then ill have to disagree with your concept. For every action comes a reaction for every play style should have a counter play style this creates the balance. If shrike only last 3 rounds then Mass resist should only last 3 rounds do you see where am going with this? Stalling games should never be apart of pvp which also should go towards players passing for one hour they should be penalized for this or give a maximum penalty where both parties ends match in draw but the one who initiated the most damage with the (.exception of healing wins the match). In other words healing doesn't count towards the initial damage count. This will completely destroy the jade meta/setters in rank pvp matches.
I agree, however, if they buy packs or buy gear in order to win in pvp, they spent money on that. Like you said, with every action comes a reaction. And it is true that every play style has a counter play style. It should be your job to recognize the metas and the "OP strats" and find a way to counter it. For example, if you know people will have resist gear, then get a lot of pierce jewels and pierce gear with relatively high damage and crit chance. If people will non-stop use a lot of shields, then carry shatter. Make them not have those shields. Also, your whole thing with penalties for people that pass a lot makes a good deal of sense. However, why punish the people that heal? If a life wants to carry all those heals in their deck, why should they be punished for having that as a strategy when they may not want to use too many damage spells in order to win. Plus, going back to the part of your message that "Stalling games should never be a part of pvp" why shouldn't it? Trolls will exist in games no matter what the devs do to try to stop it. If they want to spend money to get jade gear or if they want to spam set shields, let them. It doesn't matter what KingsIsle does to try to prevent it, there will always be a loophole. Your argument with jade metas and setters has gone way out of proportion. It has been around forever. And I am certain if jade gear gets banned and shields are nerfed or something, people will still find a way around these things. For example, heal spamming, guardian spirit, and have you even seen the fire school? Or the balance school? What I am trying to point out is that KingsIsle could give you guys everything you want in pvp and there will still be an OP strategy that will wipe the fields. And nothing will be able to change that.
Look dude, this argument has gone on long enough. People that have "ridiculous resist for one particular school" know what they are doing in pvp. If they are smart enough to have gear farmed for resist to every school, they deserve to win against you. In my eyes, if they got immunity or high resist, all power to them. It should be your job to analyze the situation and deal with the problem. Find the best possible way to counter them. For example, if you are so worried about others setting, try making them run out of cards. Start stalling them out until they can play nothing anymore. If they are a strong school (fire is really good this time around) then stack shields, dispels, weaknesses, and mantles. And, if you know people are going to set, why don't you carry shatters? Wait for them to use a lot of shields and then take all of those out. Also, if you can assess the problem from its roots, you could end up being top of the leaderboard. If you can't take the heat of the oven, step out of the kitchen buddy. I'm not trying to start anything with you but this is just pointless.
For the last time. A. Shatter. Would. Cost. A. Non-Myth. Wizard. 6. Pips. Why is it so wrong for me to bring to attention a flaw in the system where many of my friends and wiztubers on streams where people are setting hard on are complaining about? You wanna know what's more smart? Coming into a match with shields prepared for every situation. If you can do that for rank matches blind folded, why not for tournaments eh?
For the last time. A. Shatter. Would. Cost. A. Non-Myth. Wizard. 6. Pips. Why is it so wrong for me to bring to attention a flaw in the system where many of my friends and wiztubers on streams where people are setting hard on are complaining about? You wanna know what's more smart? Coming into a match with shields prepared for every situation. If you can do that for rank matches blind folded, why not for tournaments eh?
Isn't that a risk you have to take sometimes? You can get up to 14 pips, take 6 away from it and you're left with 8, that's enough to use a decent spell. Then, after you shatter you still get another pip, so that's up to ten. You're argument about shatter is invalid at this point. If many people are complaining about it, why hasn't a new strategy arose yet to deal with it? You wanna know what's more smart? Watching duels and seeing how things play out and then using tactics from those people to form your own strategy on how to win those matches. Or, the easier way out, accept you won't win every time. Have you seen warlords and their matches? it's usually like a 2000-1000 range and some times it is even more losses and less wins. So TL;DR the shatter argument is invalid, and you will not win matches every time.
I agree, however, if they buy packs or buy gear in order to win in pvp, they spent money on that. Like you said, with every action comes a reaction. And it is true that every play style has a counter play style. It should be your job to recognize the metas and the "OP strats" and find a way to counter it. For example, if you know people will have resist gear, then get a lot of pierce jewels and pierce gear with relatively high damage and crit chance. If people will non-stop use a lot of shields, then carry shatter. Make them not have those shields. Also, your whole thing with penalties for people that pass a lot makes a good deal of sense. However, why punish the people that heal? If a life wants to carry all those heals in their deck, why should they be punished for having that as a strategy when they may not want to use too many damage spells in order to win. Plus, going back to the part of your message that "Stalling games should never be a part of pvp" why shouldn't it? Trolls will exist in games no matter what the devs do to try to stop it. If they want to spend money to get jade gear or if they want to spam set shields, let them. It doesn't matter what KingsIsle does to try to prevent it, there will always be a loophole. Your argument with jade metas and setters has gone way out of proportion. It has been around forever. And I am certain if jade gear gets banned and shields are nerfed or something, people will still find a way around these things. For example, heal spamming, guardian spirit, and have you even seen the fire school? Or the balance school? What I am trying to point out is that KingsIsle could give you guys everything you want in pvp and there will still be an OP strategy that will wipe the fields. And nothing will be able to change that.
This doesn't justify a non crown related pve gear player who is trying to adjust to the meta. Am also not sure that buying stuff should promote some form of advantage or disadvantage towards towards pvp because this creates an imbalance and unhealthy pvp environment. As a player coming from league of legends balance setting point of view, their is no content that can be purchase with money would put any player in a major advantage over another player. The game requires skills and wits to outplay the opponent. KI has the ability to centralize strategy were as if it becomes a coming high win scenario without any risk it should be nerfed. To make something as balance risk should be equal to or greater than the reward. That way you can say i worked for the W than saying it wasn't much of a match. Whenever i play on balance, ice or fire i found out i always win easily at least 8/10 of my matches, wear as for storm, life or death i only win 4-6/10 times trying super hard. Myth is also the 5/10 for me 50% chance due to that school being an average risk mediocre reward school.
I also believe their is always a start and getting rid of crown related contents involved in pvp will balance pvp. Then adding turn base mode to rank matches. Then lastly updating and fixing current spells to adjust to the meta.
This doesn't justify a non crown related pve gear player who is trying to adjust to the meta. Am also not sure that buying stuff should promote some form of advantage or disadvantage towards towards pvp because this creates an imbalance and unhealthy pvp environment. As a player coming from league of legends balance setting point of view, their is no content that can be purchase with money would put any player in a major advantage over another player. The game requires skills and wits to outplay the opponent. KI has the ability to centralize strategy were as if it becomes a coming high win scenario without any risk it should be nerfed. To make something as balance risk should be equal to or greater than the reward. That way you can say i worked for the W than saying it wasn't much of a match. Whenever i play on balance, ice or fire i found out i always win easily at least 8/10 of my matches, wear as for storm, life or death i only win 4-6/10 times trying super hard. Myth is also the 5/10 for me 50% chance due to that school being an average risk mediocre reward school.
I also believe their is always a start and getting rid of crown related contents involved in pvp will balance pvp. Then adding turn base mode to rank matches. Then lastly updating and fixing current spells to adjust to the meta.
However, League of Legends is no where close to being balanced and there is a pay to win advantage. You can buy every champion in the game and exploit the others by using the strongest champions. I know, I play LoL too. Also, I agree, balance, fire, and ice are OP. So yes, I do say balancing changes are due for other school like life and death. However, pve geared players normally have crowns gear or wands to balance their stats and create good loadouts capable of one shotting many different bosses. And if they want to adjust to the meta, play practice pvp since pvp is a lot different from pve. Yes, KI has the ability to centralize strategy, however, maybe they know that if jade gear gets nerfed then a new strategy will arise. Different OP strats will continue to appear until pvp is gone. That is just plain fact. Look at every other game that has player vs player. They keep nerfing and buffing until no one has the urge to play anymore.
Getting rid of crown contents will do more harm than good in pvp, and no matter what, they can nerf things into the ground, nothing can stop others from getting high resist and/or finding exploits to win in pvp.
How about just locking your gear and deck before you queue up for tourney or ranked. I think this is a perfect solution to the problem at hand. The only issue would be refilling Tc during a Tourney but lets be honest someone has to lose and I don't see this as the worst outcome in my opinion
Isn't that a risk you have to take sometimes? You can get up to 14 pips, take 6 away from it and you're left with 8, that's enough to use a decent spell. Then, after you shatter you still get another pip, so that's up to ten. You're argument about shatter is invalid at this point. If many people are complaining about it, why hasn't a new strategy arose yet to deal with it? You wanna know what's more smart? Watching duels and seeing how things play out and then using tactics from those people to form your own strategy on how to win those matches. Or, the easier way out, accept you won't win every time. Have you seen warlords and their matches? it's usually like a 2000-1000 range and some times it is even more losses and less wins. So TL;DR the shatter argument is invalid, and you will not win matches every time.
How about you watch the tournament stream that awesomethesauce did which made it much more fairer that you have to use your brain and actual strategy than spamming set shields mindlessly? He capped set shields to up to 3 and made the resist cap up to 70, and ki can do more by not enabling people to change their pet and gear throughout the entire tourney, similarly like tourneys. Again, you just feel threatened when I just said you come in blindfolded to ranks but you're so defensive when I say it should be the same to 4 tournament matches?
