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good and evil wizards

AuthorMessage
Survivor
Oct 16, 2014
23
I think wizard101 should make good and bad wizards. Not all wizards that we read from fairy tails or see in movies are not all good. I think KI should make a totally different thing about wizards like when you create a wizard you get to choose good or bad. I also think KI should make 6 different schools for the bad sides of wizards such as water, earth, gravity etc you get my point. Bad wizards should work for Malistare and have their own world and instead like fighting with Old Cob in Mirage, You help him. The same thing should go for p101 because not all pirates are good or bad. I know it will take a very long time for KI to produce this but this is just an idea. I don't know a good story for bad wizards but what bad wizards should do is cause destruction to worlds and steal while good wizards try to not let that happen.

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
214
An interesting thought but also a lot of work, and not something I believe KingsIlse would encourage.

You have to understand what being evil actually entails, sure in an evil story line you might start off with harmless cheesy evil deeds and hurting other to help yourself. But in order for people to stay interested in a storyline like that the actions would have to escalate. Later in the story you might be looking at committing crimes like forgery, theft, burglary, kidnapping, assault, arson, maybe even murder.

Last I checked this was Wizard101 not Grand Theft Auto.

This was a game that was made for players as young as ten, do you really think ten year olds should be encouraged to try and evil alternate storyline that could lead to actions like that, not only in game but in real life?

In another game, a game meant for older teens and young adults an alternate evil storyline might make sense because those age groups understand right from wrong. And while that may not stop them from doing bad things at least they can understand why these things are wrong.

I don't mean to sound harsh or completely shut down an idea like having an alternate evil storyline but you always have to keep the bigger picture in mind as well as how changes effect the players.

Mastermind
Apr 13, 2011
398
doing something as big as this would be as big as reinventing the entire game from scratch as well as updating the current game as we know it. also what kind of message would that send? that doing bad things is fun? just think about it.

Astrologist
Aug 23, 2016
1059
Brilliant idea in theory. Harder to do in reality.

Let's put it this way. The Villain is the Hero of his own story. In a game setting, you as the Hero want to see your character win and you play the character accordingly (you don't go into battle expecting to lose). W101 is coded with the fact that although tough to beat (and nearly impossible to solo) Mallistare will eventually be defeated and you progress. Although I haven't faced her yet, I'm assuming that Morganthe is programmed the same way.

To program a game from the "Evil" point of view, your Wizard would want to help Mallistare and defeat the "Villainous students" that Merle Ambrose has sent to thwart your esteemed teacher Mallistare. The whole ending would need to be re-coded and redone to reflect this change of goals.

To be an "Evil Wizard" your character would want to help the Maestro against the Professor, be actively trying to get a Lost Page for themselves, fighting to keep Ravenwood's students from accomplishing ANY of their goals and quests. Would that be a fun game to play? probably. Especially if you really think that Slytherin should have done more to stop Harry Potter.

Is KI going to program and code a game from that viewpoint? probably not anytime soon.

Steven Ghoststalker
73

Defender
May 02, 2010
101
The Lore Keeper on Aug 17, 2017 wrote:
An interesting thought but also a lot of work, and not something I believe KingsIlse would encourage.

You have to understand what being evil actually entails, sure in an evil story line you might start off with harmless cheesy evil deeds and hurting other to help yourself. But in order for people to stay interested in a storyline like that the actions would have to escalate. Later in the story you might be looking at committing crimes like forgery, theft, burglary, kidnapping, assault, arson, maybe even murder.

Last I checked this was Wizard101 not Grand Theft Auto.

This was a game that was made for players as young as ten, do you really think ten year olds should be encouraged to try and evil alternate storyline that could lead to actions like that, not only in game but in real life?

In another game, a game meant for older teens and young adults an alternate evil storyline might make sense because those age groups understand right from wrong. And while that may not stop them from doing bad things at least they can understand why these things are wrong.

I don't mean to sound harsh or completely shut down an idea like having an alternate evil storyline but you always have to keep the bigger picture in mind as well as how changes effect the players.
Being evil in this game is not equivalent to murder or robbery or arson. Literally almost every villain in this game is a cheesy, generic fantasy antagonist. You cannot compare a game like Grand Theft Auto to a fantasy MMORPG.

World of Warcraft on the other hand allows you to choose whether you want to be evil or not. If KI were to implement something like this in game, (which I doubt they will), the quests would be literally the same. You defeat mobs that are supposed to be "evil", so if there was an evil story line you would just be defeating mobs that are supposed to be "good". Defeating bosses that are supposed to be "good guys". You get my point?

Defender
Jun 04, 2014
183
Hmm. Hard to do but it could be done if done in the abstract. Here is my take:

1) More quests could be added to game. New quests and existing quests could be labeled as "good" or "bad" quests. Good quests contribute to a good "karma" rating. Bad or evil quests contribute to a bad "karma" rating. Players are free to choose any quest they wish at any time.

2) Each individual wizard could have a "Karma" score for their character. The Game Could also have an overall "Karma" meter which would be on display - maybe at a board near the bazaar.

3) The "fun" part would be having all the individual players Karma quests are totaled up and determine the current overall World Karma Rating. So you could see if a world was leaning toward "Good" or "Bad". In the aggregate, the many actions of all the players could slowly over time influence whether a world was leaning toward Good, Bad, or Balance.

4) And the more fun part. Physical changes could accompany this. As the world leaned toward Bad, subtle changes would start appearing. For example, if the world were leaning toward bad or evil, streets and sidewalks could appear potholed. Buildings could start looking rundown and burned out. There could be poor beggarly looking people on street corners, etc. Costs for things in bazaar could get higher, etc.

So there would be an interesting dynamic between players who would by taking these quests to shift the world toward good, evil, or balance. Each world of the spiral could have its own Karma scale. Also, to add more fun. Players with more "bad" or evil Karma would get certain advantages in evil leaning worlds - maybe their spells do more damage, or they get different style pet drops, or something. Good Karma characters might get negative advantages in evil worlds, and of course, vice versa.

Also, if a wizard later in the game decides they want to change their orientation, they can start doing the other quests (i.e. good wizard starts doing evil quests). Food for thought.

Defender
Jun 04, 2014
183
Continuation from my other post.

An example of an "evil" quest could be something like defeating the ponycorn in Avalon (I forgot the name) and locking her in a cage. The good version of this quest is of course, the quest where you release her from the cage. No murder or mayhem involved. Just doing the reverse of many of the existing "good" quests that exist in the game.

Players on a "good" path, would simply choose the "good" version of the quest, and vice versa. If a wizard later on in the game decided they wanted to change their character, they could go back and start doing all the "bad" quests. In this respect, the "bad" quests would act as undone side quests - still listed in your quest guide until completed.

Since the good and bad versions of the quests would have the same Karma rating, A good player doing all the bad quests would slowly shift their rating from say good karma to the middle - i.e. more toward balance. As new worlds came out with new quests, and they continued doing the bad quests, then they would slowly shift toward the "evil" karma.

Defender
Jul 21, 2013
125
CUTEHORSEY on Aug 19, 2017 wrote:
Hmm. Hard to do but it could be done if done in the abstract. Here is my take:

1) More quests could be added to game. New quests and existing quests could be labeled as "good" or "bad" quests. Good quests contribute to a good "karma" rating. Bad or evil quests contribute to a bad "karma" rating. Players are free to choose any quest they wish at any time.

2) Each individual wizard could have a "Karma" score for their character. The Game Could also have an overall "Karma" meter which would be on display - maybe at a board near the bazaar.

3) The "fun" part would be having all the individual players Karma quests are totaled up and determine the current overall World Karma Rating. So you could see if a world was leaning toward "Good" or "Bad". In the aggregate, the many actions of all the players could slowly over time influence whether a world was leaning toward Good, Bad, or Balance.

4) And the more fun part. Physical changes could accompany this. As the world leaned toward Bad, subtle changes would start appearing. For example, if the world were leaning toward bad or evil, streets and sidewalks could appear potholed. Buildings could start looking rundown and burned out. There could be poor beggarly looking people on street corners, etc. Costs for things in bazaar could get higher, etc.

So there would be an interesting dynamic between players who would by taking these quests to shift the world toward good, evil, or balance. Each world of the spiral could have its own Karma scale. Also, to add more fun. Players with more "bad" or evil Karma would get certain advantages in evil leaning worlds - maybe their spells do more damage, or they get different style pet drops, or something. Good Karma characters might get negative advantages in evil worlds, and of course, vice versa.

Also, if a wizard later in the game decides they want to change their orientation, they can start doing the other quests (i.e. good wizard starts doing evil quests). Food for thought.
I love this idea but I would like to have a like 'Wanted' Stystem. You could defeat the evil players for rewards like items, gold ,etc.

Explorer
Jun 27, 2015
50
At the beginning of the game, there should be two options where there will be a question asked by Gamma saying "Are you a wizard seeking greatness in the Spiral or a wizard who seeks to return everything back to the Shadow? You are the One. Wisely choose your destiny and I shall grant it for you. If you choose to be the one they call Evil, I will not tell. Of course, all the recruits Merle summons will go after you, so unless you don't want to become like poor old Jabba, the evil Life Professor before Sylvia & ultimately, Mother Wu, don't try to attract attention,".

Now if you choose evil, you will be summoned by Gamma to go too the tower where your professor awaits but if you choose good, the original tutorial precedes. This is what will happen if you choose evil:

"Ah, look at you. I knew you would follow your instincts. Anyone who believes the con artist of Merle is a liar. Even his owl is against him! You see, Gamma is our owl planting lies too Merle ever since he founded Ravenwood. He's been our spy & ultimately is helping us out. The Cabal of which we're called is in Mirage, a mystical land hidden by normal eyes. Now, into the portal we- wait, who's that? Ambrose!" he says with a serious tone, recalling an old enemy.

"Malistare, what is this game you're playing with this young wizard? Stop beguiling him with your words of evil deceit for they are lies meant to cloud your mind. Join me & I will show you the righteous path before you're taken by this evil man," he says angrily too Malistare. The wizard then decides whether to choose "Good" which gives you a second chance to go back too Merle or "Evil" where you will go too Mirage. If you choose Evil, this happens:

"My, my, Ambrose. Your cheap card tricks do not deceive this wizard. Now let's carry onto Mirage. I will summon my dragons to deal with him & his pupil. Finish him,". They then leave to too Mirage where they plan out their attacks on Wizard City & the rest of the world's, causing havoc in their wake.

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
214
J StormCatcher on Aug 18, 2017 wrote:
Being evil in this game is not equivalent to murder or robbery or arson. Literally almost every villain in this game is a cheesy, generic fantasy antagonist. You cannot compare a game like Grand Theft Auto to a fantasy MMORPG.

World of Warcraft on the other hand allows you to choose whether you want to be evil or not. If KI were to implement something like this in game, (which I doubt they will), the quests would be literally the same. You defeat mobs that are supposed to be "evil", so if there was an evil story line you would just be defeating mobs that are supposed to be "good". Defeating bosses that are supposed to be "good guys". You get my point?
Even still, evil deeds or no evil deeds, evil is evil and I don't think that KingsIsle should/would encourage that kind of option in a game that is played by people as young as ten.

I can see how a villain like Malistaire can be a bit cheesy, and an evil player working for Malistaire could be an interesting thing but what happens when Malistaire is (possibly) defeated?

Morganthe is also a far cry from normal typical fantasy villain. Morganthe is a merciless person who simply throws caution into the wind. Who acts upon a whim without care or remorse for the people she harms or the destruction she causes in her attempt to basically become an all powerful goddess and rewrite the Spiral. Add to this that she wanted to destroy Ravenwood, kill Ambrose, and also implied that she intends to kill us as well several times.

And last I checked Old Cob was not a cheesy generic fantasy antagonist. The desire to recreate the First World, exact vengeance on Grandmother Raven (most likely by killing her), unleash unlimited chaos upon every world in the Spiral, and plunge everything into shadow?

Warning Spoilers Ahead!

Add to this that Cob kidnaps Mellori at the end of Mirage, and goodness only knows what he plans to do to her. We saw what shadow magic alone did to Morganthe, imagine what a being Cob/Grandfather Spider, the living embodiment of shadow, can do to Mellori.

Would you really want to encourage young players to take that kind of path? Granted it's just a game but there's more to be considered here.

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
214
As continuation of my last post on this topic.

You have to consider how players would treat that kind of system. It would be encouraging a form of separation in players based upon alignment. Having two separate story lines means good players would be working against evil wizards, and vice versa. Which means they're probably not going to have many interactions with each other story-wise.

To quote what The Awesome Pyromancer said a few posts up, "What kind of message would that send? That doing bad things is fun?"

It also would be giving trolls and cyberbullies an excuse to make more mischief simply because they're playing an evil character. Ex. "oh I just took this other kid's treasure cards because I'm evil", or "Me and my buddies were making fun of that other kid because our wizards are evil." (probably not in those words but you can understand what I'm getting at). Sure roleplaying is roleplaying, but in game like this encouraging evil roleplaying especially when others don't realize it can lead to some rather giant confusing emotional messes. And some players being punished fairly and others less so.

Then you would need to have two separate instances of the majorly important dungeons or a completely different series of dungeons for both good and evil wizards. Hence why KingsIsle is not likely do this, it would be easier to make a whole new game than rewrite the existing one for an evil storyline.

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
214
And going a little deeper into the lore of Marleybone, you have the O'Leary gang. A gang, that works against the common law enforcement in Marleybone. And what do they do? They perform deeds like extortion, breaking and entering, theft, kidnaping (on more than account), they even plan a raid on Newgate Prison (granted that was probably with help). Furthermore I should point out that Jacques the Scratcher who attacks innocent citizens in Marleybone, is loosely based upon the unidentified Victorian serial killer Jack the Ripper.

Okay so picture an evil story-line running through Marleybone with Marleybone's notorious O'Leary Gang or other gang, what are you likely to be doing? Beating up citizens, breaking into their houses, stealing their stuff, helping Jacques the Scratcher assault the citizens of Marleybone, organizing the O'Leary's raid on Newgate Prison, etc....

But for as cool as it sounds; game creators should not be inspiring those kinds of ideas in the minds of ten year olds. No less allowing a player that young to believe that those actions are okay.

Sure it sounds cool and playing through a story like that is tempting, even to me. But unfortunately not everyone understands that the evil deeds they perform in video games should stay video in games.

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
214
J StormCatcher on Aug 18, 2017 wrote:
Being evil in this game is not equivalent to murder or robbery or arson. Literally almost every villain in this game is a cheesy, generic fantasy antagonist. You cannot compare a game like Grand Theft Auto to a fantasy MMORPG.

World of Warcraft on the other hand allows you to choose whether you want to be evil or not. If KI were to implement something like this in game, (which I doubt they will), the quests would be literally the same. You defeat mobs that are supposed to be "evil", so if there was an evil story line you would just be defeating mobs that are supposed to be "good". Defeating bosses that are supposed to be "good guys". You get my point?
I do understand where you're coming from JStormCatcher (nice name btw) and I'm not trying to be mean, words are as much bridges as they are walls.

It is not my intention to directly compare the idea of an evil Wizard101 storyline to GTA. I am comparing the kind of message that sends to younger players. Again to quote The Awesome Pyromancer's words "what kind of message would that send? That doing bad things is fun?"

There are many incidents of children reenacting scenes from games that encourage bad choices in real life. If Wizard101, a game where your character's purpose is to be the hero of the story/save the Spiral, were to suddenly introduce an evil option in game that is meant for player's as young as ten what kind of precedence would that set?

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
214
CUTEHORSEY on Aug 19, 2017 wrote:
Hmm. Hard to do but it could be done if done in the abstract. Here is my take:

1) More quests could be added to game. New quests and existing quests could be labeled as "good" or "bad" quests. Good quests contribute to a good "karma" rating. Bad or evil quests contribute to a bad "karma" rating. Players are free to choose any quest they wish at any time.

2) Each individual wizard could have a "Karma" score for their character. The Game Could also have an overall "Karma" meter which would be on display - maybe at a board near the bazaar.

3) The "fun" part would be having all the individual players Karma quests are totaled up and determine the current overall World Karma Rating. So you could see if a world was leaning toward "Good" or "Bad". In the aggregate, the many actions of all the players could slowly over time influence whether a world was leaning toward Good, Bad, or Balance.

4) And the more fun part. Physical changes could accompany this. As the world leaned toward Bad, subtle changes would start appearing. For example, if the world were leaning toward bad or evil, streets and sidewalks could appear potholed. Buildings could start looking rundown and burned out. There could be poor beggarly looking people on street corners, etc. Costs for things in bazaar could get higher, etc.

So there would be an interesting dynamic between players who would by taking these quests to shift the world toward good, evil, or balance. Each world of the spiral could have its own Karma scale. Also, to add more fun. Players with more "bad" or evil Karma would get certain advantages in evil leaning worlds - maybe their spells do more damage, or they get different style pet drops, or something. Good Karma characters might get negative advantages in evil worlds, and of course, vice versa.

Also, if a wizard later in the game decides they want to change their orientation, they can start doing the other quests (i.e. good wizard starts doing evil quests). Food for thought.
Interesting, I suppose. But I don't think giving advantages for being evil in an evil controlled world and placing negative effects on good wizards who are playing in the same world (or vice versa) is really fair.

For example, imagine you were a good player in a mostly evil world. Under a system like that you would have a much harder time completing your quests, leveling up, getting your spells, and buying the gear or items you want for your wizard. Even if you fight as hard as you can to combat the evil, there may or may not be enough good aligned players in the world to truly change/effect things.

Under such a system, the dominant morality of the world (good or evil) would profit greatly while the other suffers and cannot really do much to change it. If a system like that were to be implemented there would have to be areas of neutrality, like the Commons, Ravenwood, the Pet Pavilion, the Bazaar, and so on in order for it to be somewhat fair.

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
214
The Weather Man on Aug 19, 2017 wrote:
I love this idea but I would like to have a like 'Wanted' Stystem. You could defeat the evil players for rewards like items, gold ,etc.
A fun idea for pvp.