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The game is to easy; add "Hardcore" mode?

AuthorMessage
Defender
Dec 06, 2009
115
From some of these comments I wonder if everyone understands the term Hardcore the same way. My understanding of a hardcore game is one with permanent death and item loss making it much harder to advance and much more painful when you face the inevitable loss.

There is a very big difference between saying make the game (or a server on it) more difficult and make the game hardcore. Generally speaking making the game hardcore will make it harder, but you can also increase the difficulty without making it hardcore.

My question would be is the result of any such changes worth the effort? Would the cost of time and effort on KI's side be worthwhile? I imagine the creation of a new instance of the game that supported hardcore players by implementing permanent death and item loss would require development resources to build and support the new version...then KI would have to test and implement the changes in both instances which could in some cases double the work for each release, etc.

One thing I wouldn't complain about (too much) would be a death penalties type implementation where your stats drop for a certain amount of time when you lose...that is common in a lot of games and a good halfway point between permadeath and being able to keep charging right back to battle 5 seconds after loss.

Armiger
Feb 25, 2009
2425
anecorbie on Feb 24, 2017 wrote:
It's a private playground for those who need the hardcore thrill and experience the danger/risk of losing a character you've leveled, bought gear for, trained pets and mounts. ( see, I completely understood that it's separate from the main game ).
Now how is KI supposed to pay for all that extra work? I don't see any hardcore player here offering to pay extra for this dubious privilege.
No, all I see are complaints that KI "nerfs" too hard, and demands that KI provides hardcore content. If KI caves to your demands, they may pass this extra cost across the board in higher membership rates or zone prices, excuse me, but I'm not going to pay for your "thrill".
As to your accusation that casuals don't farm, don't use team-up, and don't ask for help - I can only speak for myself. When I find time I do farm and the extremely low drop rate in most dungeons is discouraging.
I use team-up when I've given a dungeon an honest effort ( at least 2- 3 tries ) but team-up often leaves much to be desired ( we've all had those terrible experiences ).
I ask for help when my friends are on-line, often I don't even get a reply. I even offer my friends help when I see they're in a difficult dungeon.
Yes, I continue to maintain the onus is on you to make the game as hard as you want it and what's wrong with that?
In reality, KI would not have a lot of extra work involved in creating a hardcore server. They can take the game as it is and tweak it to fit the need for the challenges those who are hardcore are asking for. The data is all there so it isn't like building an entirely new game.

The Login screen would remain as it is now but once logged in on the character page, there would be the option to play extreme or normal. That would be the only thing separating the two sides of the game.

ALL players would have access to either the extreme or normal play. My main suggestion to this is that those of us who are casual to average players understand that if we attempt to run the extreme side of the game, we can't come to the boards and demand it be nerfed.

I don't agree with the idea of losing your wizard and all connected to it if you happen to lose a battle. Even hardcore players work hard for their gear and pets and their gardens just like the rest of us do. So I would say no to that particular thought.

There should be NO EXTRA charges for this either. Members or crowns players who buy the game should be able to have access to that server just the same as has always been....There is also the possibility that a hardcore server may even attract more hardcore players so more revenue. KI has never increased their rates when adding new worlds or side content so why should this be any different.

I wouldn't call having a hardcore server a privilege but an OPTION just as the Optional dungeons that have been added.

The biggest issue that has been mentioned numerous times is the DROP RATES. This is what is really hurting a lot of players, especially the more casual ones. I am a more average player than casual, but certainly not hardcore. I have managed to solo some of the difficult instances from Zf through Az on my life wizard but I have also had help from friends for those really difficult instances and dungeons.

The idea really does have merit if KI can accomplish it.

Armiger
Feb 25, 2009
2425
High Five Ghost on Feb 24, 2017 wrote:
This idea of a separate server, how does it work? I know it's been suggested to just run the main game and have certain realms that are tougher than others, but with a separate server, are we talking about splitting the game completely where you would say have a separate loader for both options? Would it be like a Live and Test kind of thing? Because that's what I'm envisioning, with the exception that you would probably never be able to transfer character data between the two of them.

I've agreed with others on difficulty options before, but if that is what the idea is, then why would KI do that? They may as well make up an entirely different game as opposed to almost completely reprogramming W101 and creating a separate instance of the game, especially if your wizards can only exist on one or the other.

But again, maybe I'm misunderstanding. I have no reason to object to anything the OP is suggesting if it's not implemented in the regular game, I just don't know what the "separate server" suggestion means. Can anybody clarify if I'm completely wrong in what I'm picturing?
If I am correct in my thinking, a separate server could still be tied to the original login. At the Character selection page, there would be two options. One would be "Extreme" and the other would be "Normal". Depending on which one you chose would determine which server you went to.

What everyone needs to remember is that all the data for the game and all wizards is already there. The only thing that would be different is the difficulty level. KI would not have to completely reprogram the game but instead, TWEAK the extreme side to the levels comparable to what Mirage was pre-nerf. Somewhere in that area of difficulty, then take it to Test and let those who are looking for that kind of content test it out and see how if it fits what they want in challenges.

By doing this, maybe KI can bring the increase in difficulty on the normal side to the gradual increase that most can work with and MAYBE not have to nerf any part. Then on the Extreme side, they can work with those who want the hardcore content to balance it out for them. I don't think just setting aside realms would work for something like this. It would leave too much chance of some bad glitches or things going wrong in dungeons or instances if all were tied on the same servers.

The instances and dungeons would all be MIRRORED for the most part but would be different in difficulty.

Casual players can attempt the Extreme if they choose BUT, CAN NOT demand it to be nerfed for them.

This kind of server set up would greatly reduce the "drama" that we see here on the boards. Some of us are Friends in the game as well but, we are on different levels in regards to casual and hardcore causing a bit of unnecessary friction across the community. Those who are hardcore can still come to the normal side of the game to help friends as well but would also understand that it isn't the challenge they want and have on the extreme side.

Defender
Dec 06, 2009
115
DragonLady1818 on Feb 25, 2017 wrote:
In reality, KI would not have a lot of extra work involved in creating a hardcore server. They can take the game as it is and tweak it to fit the need for the challenges those who are hardcore are asking for. The data is all there so it isn't like building an entirely new game.

The Login screen would remain as it is now but once logged in on the character page, there would be the option to play extreme or normal. That would be the only thing separating the two sides of the game.

ALL players would have access to either the extreme or normal play. My main suggestion to this is that those of us who are casual to average players understand that if we attempt to run the extreme side of the game, we can't come to the boards and demand it be nerfed.

I don't agree with the idea of losing your wizard and all connected to it if you happen to lose a battle. Even hardcore players work hard for their gear and pets and their gardens just like the rest of us do. So I would say no to that particular thought.

There should be NO EXTRA charges for this either. Members or crowns players who buy the game should be able to have access to that server just the same as has always been....There is also the possibility that a hardcore server may even attract more hardcore players so more revenue. KI has never increased their rates when adding new worlds or side content so why should this be any different.

I wouldn't call having a hardcore server a privilege but an OPTION just as the Optional dungeons that have been added.

The biggest issue that has been mentioned numerous times is the DROP RATES. This is what is really hurting a lot of players, especially the more casual ones. I am a more average player than casual, but certainly not hardcore. I have managed to solo some of the difficult instances from Zf through Az on my life wizard but I have also had help from friends for those really difficult instances and dungeons.

The idea really does have merit if KI can accomplish it.
I am sorry to disagree, but unless you are an actual KI employee who has worked with the system design enough to know for a fact that this is true you should not express it as such.

I have no way of knowing the specifics of the wiz 101 implementation, but I do know that any time you roll out multiple instances of a code environment you need to do due diligence in each environment before you can make a change to it...that is if you don't want to blow something up horribly.

Also, if a permadeath server come into play, how would it work...could you bounce between the two servers essentially allowing someone to play minions hard core then jump over to regular servers for boss fights?

What about when someone gets disconnected during a boss fight and dies? Does KI then have the option/desire to restore lost characters?

Are they willing to add the additional support to deal with all the complaints?

What about when someone decides to intentionally throw a battle to make another wizard die? etc.

While its easy to assume its as simple as a copy and pasting of some game files and then a few adjustments to make it hardcore, they would need to copy the server, modify it, test it...then make sure any changes in the original server also happen in the copy...and the copy doesn't break from the changes. For EVERY release.

I have no problems with them adding some optional super difficult dungeons or death penalties to make more of a challenge for players. I do think saying oh you know completely revamp the game on a separate server just for those super adrenaline junkies...and do it for free too is stretching things a bit, as well as cutting back on what can be released for all players due to resource considerations.

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1113
DragonLady1818 on Feb 25, 2017 wrote:
If I am correct in my thinking, a separate server could still be tied to the original login. At the Character selection page, there would be two options. One would be "Extreme" and the other would be "Normal". Depending on which one you chose would determine which server you went to.

What everyone needs to remember is that all the data for the game and all wizards is already there. The only thing that would be different is the difficulty level. KI would not have to completely reprogram the game but instead, TWEAK the extreme side to the levels comparable to what Mirage was pre-nerf. Somewhere in that area of difficulty, then take it to Test and let those who are looking for that kind of content test it out and see how if it fits what they want in challenges.

By doing this, maybe KI can bring the increase in difficulty on the normal side to the gradual increase that most can work with and MAYBE not have to nerf any part. Then on the Extreme side, they can work with those who want the hardcore content to balance it out for them. I don't think just setting aside realms would work for something like this. It would leave too much chance of some bad glitches or things going wrong in dungeons or instances if all were tied on the same servers.

The instances and dungeons would all be MIRRORED for the most part but would be different in difficulty.

Casual players can attempt the Extreme if they choose BUT, CAN NOT demand it to be nerfed for them.

This kind of server set up would greatly reduce the "drama" that we see here on the boards. Some of us are Friends in the game as well but, we are on different levels in regards to casual and hardcore causing a bit of unnecessary friction across the community. Those who are hardcore can still come to the normal side of the game to help friends as well but would also understand that it isn't the challenge they want and have on the extreme side.
Nice idea and I'd love it see this happen. But I feel there's a lot more to it than just Tweaking. Right now everything is in one mode; hard and easy in both storyline and side quests. KI would have to separate the hard from the easy at the same time not loosing any quests by redoing a lot of them starting from the beginning of the game while creating a second mode. With that much Tweaking, that will require a lot of time and work. Don't get me wrong, it can be done if and when KI has the manpower to do so without putting a hold on creating new worlds and accessories. But for now a lot more players have to come forward with this idea before KI consider doing this project. I'm hopping they would.

Historian
Nov 28, 2010
614
DragonLady1818 on Feb 25, 2017 wrote:
If I am correct in my thinking, a separate server could still be tied to the original login. At the Character selection page, there would be two options. One would be "Extreme" and the other would be "Normal". Depending on which one you chose would determine which server you went to.

What everyone needs to remember is that all the data for the game and all wizards is already there. The only thing that would be different is the difficulty level. KI would not have to completely reprogram the game but instead, TWEAK the extreme side to the levels comparable to what Mirage was pre-nerf. Somewhere in that area of difficulty, then take it to Test and let those who are looking for that kind of content test it out and see how if it fits what they want in challenges.

By doing this, maybe KI can bring the increase in difficulty on the normal side to the gradual increase that most can work with and MAYBE not have to nerf any part. Then on the Extreme side, they can work with those who want the hardcore content to balance it out for them. I don't think just setting aside realms would work for something like this. It would leave too much chance of some bad glitches or things going wrong in dungeons or instances if all were tied on the same servers.

The instances and dungeons would all be MIRRORED for the most part but would be different in difficulty.

Casual players can attempt the Extreme if they choose BUT, CAN NOT demand it to be nerfed for them.

This kind of server set up would greatly reduce the "drama" that we see here on the boards. Some of us are Friends in the game as well but, we are on different levels in regards to casual and hardcore causing a bit of unnecessary friction across the community. Those who are hardcore can still come to the normal side of the game to help friends as well but would also understand that it isn't the challenge they want and have on the extreme side.
If that's what it is, then I think it's probably worth KI's while to invest some resources into such an endeavour. I wouldn't expect it to be done and implemented within a few weeks, but at the very least I hope they consider it.

There are some people who are staying optimistic, but so many people are just fed up and frustrated with the lack of solutions. KI is going to take more hits if they don't find a way to appeal to a broader customer base again. People are quitting just as much because the game isn't "challenging" enough as they are because it's too "challenging".

Myself, I've only actually played the game about 10 times this year, so I really don't think I'll be coming back when my membership expires next month. My passion for this game is gone now. I'd like to see W101 saved for others after I'm gone, but it's not my game anymore.

How my wizards' stories end; the Rat has defeated me. The Spiral has been destroyed. I wasn't the hero Merle Ambrose and so many others thought I was. I have failed. RIP Autumn Mist, Autumn Sun, Chase Tail, Destiny Hunter, Fiona, Flint SpiritThief, Flint Stone, Grace Caller, Hunter Hunter, Jenna Moonstone, Jeremy, Jessica DragonWhisper, Richard Head, Ronan FrostBlade, Scarlet Tail, Wolf Eyes, and Wolf Tamer.

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1475
I'm a filthy casual as some game communities call it.
I have no trouble with harder quests being added for those who want those as long as it does not affect my own game.

I do not want the game any harder. I've heard it gets harder soon anyway. I have heard it's too hard in higher levels for us casuals to complete.

I'm told this by experienced players who see people having to hire henchmen for every street battle in higher levels.

My only concern about harder quests being added would be if it then drew large numbers of serious or hardcore players who then would want more and more of the game tilted to that type of player, not optionally but generally.

Geographer
Jun 06, 2008
824
Thank you for your suggestion! This thread has now run its course. Healthy debate is appreciated, but I would like to remind everyone of a few line items from our Code of Conduct. If the topic resurfaces in the future, please avoid the following:

  • derogatory statements towards KingsIsle, our partners or other players
  • posting negative rants with no constructive point
  • name-calling and other general rude behavior