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Indirect Spell Learning

1
AuthorMessage
Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
This is going to be a long thread, split over a few posts, so please don't reply until you have read the whole thing.

It would be great if we could learn more in school spells. A neat way to do this, without adding a single new spell to the game, would be by Indirect Spell Training. The way this would happen, is that after seeing a spell being cast a certain number of times, we have a chance to learn the spell. Let’s say I have a Death wizard who has seen Bonetree Lord over 25 times (as an example). As a Death wizard, I should be able to pick up knowledge on how to cast the spell. I should get an alert from Dworgyn telling me he MIGHT be able to teach me a new spell which would then send me on a quest or do some task of gathering items for him, etc. Learning new spells should simply expand what we can do. My hope for this is to have more spells available without taking away from KI’s ability to make a profit. Here’s how this would work:

When is this available for a character?
This option is available to ALL paying players at Character Level 20

How can we learn these spells?
This is only available for damage or healing spells, of your PRIMARY school, from Monster attacks, Maycast abilities, Item cards, and Treasure cards. Variations of spells, like a Death version of a non-death spell, already in the game are ok, provided they do not violate the next rule. Monster cheats that are the strength of normal wizard spells are allowed as well.

You can only learn spells equivalent to your current spell Rank or lower. If your Fire wizard’s highest rank spell is Fire Elf (Rank 2), you could not try to learn Fire Shark (Rank 3). Once your Fire wizard learned Sunbird (Rank 3), you could try to learn Fire Shark.

The greater the number of Ranks between your wizard’s highest trained spell and the spell being learned, the lesser amount of times you need to see it cast, and the better the chance you have to learn the spell. If you have a rank 7 spell as your greatest one trained, and you try to learn a Rank 3 spell, you should have better luck than if you were a Rank 4 wizard trying to learn the same Rank 3 spell.

If you fail to learn a spell, you can keep trying to learn it until you do. You will however have to see it cast another “X” amount of times before you can try again.

All learned spells should follow the same rule established already in the game; learned spells are usually weaker than TC/item card variants. Some spells ONLY show up as item cards or treasure cards, and some spells are the same from trained to item/tc spells. KI should make sure the spells are balanced for us to use.

What Spells can NOT be learned?
Variations of spells we can already learn (Grand Phoenix can’t be learned because we can already learn Phoenix)
Monster Natural Attacks (unless it’s in a version noted previously)
Spells only found in jewels
Dropped Spells
Crafted Spells
Pack spells

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
How do we know what spells can be learned?
There would be a new option on the spell screen, which would take you to the list of spells you can learn for your specific character. From that screen, you could select which spells you WANT to learn. Each spell would have a counter on it, similar to how Animus Extraction counter works. Once you hit the counter, for the specific spell, you would get the call from your teacher. Once learned, it would be listed in your school’s learned spell list. These spells would be kept during spell buy backs since they are primary school spells.

If you do NOT want to learn the spell, you leave it alone and you would not get the counter for it. You would only get the call for the spells you actually want to learn.

Spells MUST be in the game at least ONE year before they are eligible to be learned this way. This allows for monsters to still have that unique quality about them, while giving us something to look forward to

PVP availability
I’ll let KI decide if the spells should be PvP or not.

------------------------------------------------------

Now, I understand there are a TON of spells in the game, and many of them, at HIGHER levels aren’t worth it, and quite a few are very similar in damage and pip cost, but it would open up new doors to spells we can learn, and possibly, new strategies. Imagine being able to learn that elusive spell or two in your school that the monsters have but we don’t.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
I forgot to mention that the full idea has been posted and feel free to comment on the idea

Astrologist
Aug 23, 2016
1059
Let me see if I understand what you are suggesting.

My wizard is a Theurgist. So if I see "Pigsie" cast xx times (let's bump it to at least 100), I should be able to learn it easier that having to collect 10 Pigsie TC.

However, I will NEVER be able to learn Meteor Strike , because I am not a Pyromancer.

Do I have the essence of you suggestion correct?

Steven Ghoststalker
102

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
Area51Alien on Jul 3, 2018 wrote:
Let me see if I understand what you are suggesting.

My wizard is a Theurgist. So if I see "Pigsie" cast xx times (let's bump it to at least 100), I should be able to learn it easier that having to collect 10 Pigsie TC.

However, I will NEVER be able to learn Meteor Strike , because I am not a Pyromancer.

Do I have the essence of you suggestion correct?

Steven Ghoststalker
102
You have it PARTIALLY correct. Because Pigsie is a pack spell (among other excluded options), it can NOT be learned this way. Let's use a better example, a spell that actually CAN be learned this way. Let's say, you've seen Life Bats cast 100 times (to continue your example), as a Theurgist, you have the chance to train this spell, IF it is one you have marked to learn on the expanded spell screen. You correctly understand that because you're life, and not fire, you can NOT learn Meteor Strike using this new method. The whole point of this idea is to expand our spell options without taking any money away from KIs bottom line.

Let me use another example of spells that CAN be learned, the versions of Forest Lord that Aphrodite 2 uses. They're scaled for damage correctly, they're not spells from packs, they can't be crafted, they aren't dropped, they aren't outrageous damage cheat spells, and they aren't variations of spells we can already learn. There is no Myth Forest Lord spell that we can already learn, so that could be trained this way. We would not be able to learn Forest Lord Cub or Enraged Forest Lord this way since they are both versions of the regular Forest lord spell life wizards can already learn.

Does that help you out?

Explorer
Oct 04, 2012
51
That would be cool like for example if I want ice kraken I would do whatever you said above then learn it. Sorry for my terrible response I’m typing late at night.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
Jason thunderstaff on Jul 4, 2018 wrote:
That would be cool like for example if I want ice kraken I would do whatever you said above then learn it. Sorry for my terrible response I’m typing late at night.
you got it. If you're an ice wizard, and want to learn Ice Kraken, you would:

1) Go to the screen where you select Ice Kraken

2) See it cast "X" amount of times

3) Get an alert from your teacher that you might learn the spell

4) Go to your school teacher and see if they can train you in it (not guaranteed)
5) Once learned, it gets put into your spell book in the correct location based off of pips

Also, keep in mind that you could learn multiple spells at the same time too. If you wanted ice Kraken, and Ice Bats, like Monstrology, you could double up on it and if you fight monsters that cast both, AND they cast both in the same fight, BOTH would get a counter put on them.

A+ Student
Dec 24, 2009
1895
I really like this idea!!!

It would bring a fresh new perspective to farming and collecting.

Alia Misthaven

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
A PERFECT timed example of this is the new Vengeful Seraph X-pip death spell. It would NOT be able to be learned this way until 8/31/2019 (as an example); one year after it's debut

Explorer
May 13, 2018
60
Survivor
Feb 07, 2014
27
I like the idea in general, but it seems a little over complicated.
The basic concept of being able to learn the alternative spells that already exist in the game is really appealing.
It would give us players much more flexibility to express our characters' individuality in combat.

I feel my Fire wizard should be able to learn nearly every fire spell in the game in some way.
However, I also feel that if I want my wizard to be able to cast every kind of bat spell or serpent spell I should be able to have that option, too.
I think the easiest way to do this with the smallest amount of investment in time and work would be to add these spells to existing NPCs. There are a number of ways to go about this.

One way would be to give the School Trees the ability to function as Spell Card vendors for these alternative spells. Well, at least the more basic ones like Death Bat or Fire Snake etc.

Another is to have them be taught by the Wysteria Professors. Since they teach for alternative schools, why not have them teach alternative spells? Free for the spells aligned with your school, and costing training points for those that are not.

Or just do both. Split the spells up among many more NPCs. It would make the worlds of the spiral more cohesive and feel a bit more like they are part of the same universe.

On a similar note, I'd also like to see more spells available that are not "summoning" spells, but rather more akin to the spells given by wands. That way we could have more traditional flavored wizards.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
LordVanya on Sep 4, 2018 wrote:
I like the idea in general, but it seems a little over complicated.
The basic concept of being able to learn the alternative spells that already exist in the game is really appealing.
It would give us players much more flexibility to express our characters' individuality in combat.

I feel my Fire wizard should be able to learn nearly every fire spell in the game in some way.
However, I also feel that if I want my wizard to be able to cast every kind of bat spell or serpent spell I should be able to have that option, too.
I think the easiest way to do this with the smallest amount of investment in time and work would be to add these spells to existing NPCs. There are a number of ways to go about this.

One way would be to give the School Trees the ability to function as Spell Card vendors for these alternative spells. Well, at least the more basic ones like Death Bat or Fire Snake etc.

Another is to have them be taught by the Wysteria Professors. Since they teach for alternative schools, why not have them teach alternative spells? Free for the spells aligned with your school, and costing training points for those that are not.

Or just do both. Split the spells up among many more NPCs. It would make the worlds of the spiral more cohesive and feel a bit more like they are part of the same universe.

On a similar note, I'd also like to see more spells available that are not "summoning" spells, but rather more akin to the spells given by wands. That way we could have more traditional flavored wizards.
I think once people got used to it, they'd find it's not very complicated at all. The problem with having them be a vendor, the way the game is now, is you would have to get spells you DONT want in order to get spells you DID want. Let's say we make Wysteria school teachers give out these spells. If you wanted the rank 5 spell, you'd have to get the rank 1, 2, 3, and 4 first. With my method, you ONLY get the spells you want. That's why it's designed the way it is. It would work similarly to Monstrology. If you want that rank 15 monster, and nothing else, you would need to get enough experience to be able to get to the rank 15, then make the tc of it. Nobody is forcing you to make tcs of rank 1-14 monsters, but having teachers offer these WOULD.

Explorer
Jan 10, 2012
85
If this feature is added, I could:

Fight a boss/minion that uses the desired school spell.
Aquire tc spell from bazzar (that I use in combat).
Mutate a spell that creates a tc (that I use in combat).
New tc spells could be added to the "school" trees that i have to craft.
New tc spells aquired from a special teacher.
PVP included?. Loremaster, Key Boss Spells (are these excluded)?.

So, I "could" be given an opportunity to learn the "non-tc" version (within given rules).

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
dylan stronghand on Sep 7, 2018 wrote:
If this feature is added, I could:

Fight a boss/minion that uses the desired school spell.
Aquire tc spell from bazzar (that I use in combat).
Mutate a spell that creates a tc (that I use in combat).
New tc spells could be added to the "school" trees that i have to craft.
New tc spells aquired from a special teacher.
PVP included?. Loremaster, Key Boss Spells (are these excluded)?.

So, I "could" be given an opportunity to learn the "non-tc" version (within given rules).
Fight a boss/minion that uses the desired school spell.

Yes

Aquire tc spell from bazzar (that I use in combat).

Yes

Mutate a spell that creates a tc (that I use in combat).

If you mutate sunbird to thunderbird, you can no longer learn thunderbird if you're a fire wizard

New tc spells could be added to the "school" trees that i have to craft.

Not from my original idea, no. I don't want it crafted because we get back to the same problem of the spells not being available until AFTER the Zafaria crafting quest. With my proposed method, you can start learning extra spells right away (depending on the spell's level and your spell level)

New tc spells aquired from a special teacher.

As aboved, no TCs needed to learn the spell, though if you have a tc of a spell you want to learn, that would count, if you cast it, as it being seen

PVP included?

No reason not to be able to learn spells that way, I just dont know how it would unbalance PvP if the spells were allowed to be used in PvP once learned

Loremaster, Key Boss Spells (are these excluded)?
Going back to my original post:

What Spells can NOT be learned?
Variations of spells we can already learn (Grand Phoenix can’t be learned because we can already learn Phoenix)
Monster Natural Attacks (unless it’s in a version noted previously)
Spells only found in jewels
Dropped Spells

Crafted Spells

Pack spells

So, I "could" be given an opportunity to learn the "non-tc" version (within given rules).
Absolutely. If you were storm, you could learn Storm Elf from the item card instead of the tc, from the tc instead of the item card, or both. Even if the spell has different values from different casting options, the spell we learn would be one version only (which KI would have to figure out the correct damage). You could NOT learn a TC version and an item version if they both have different damage values.

Survivor
Feb 07, 2014
27
dayerider on Sep 4, 2018 wrote:
I think once people got used to it, they'd find it's not very complicated at all. The problem with having them be a vendor, the way the game is now, is you would have to get spells you DONT want in order to get spells you DID want. Let's say we make Wysteria school teachers give out these spells. If you wanted the rank 5 spell, you'd have to get the rank 1, 2, 3, and 4 first. With my method, you ONLY get the spells you want. That's why it's designed the way it is. It would work similarly to Monstrology. If you want that rank 15 monster, and nothing else, you would need to get enough experience to be able to get to the rank 15, then make the tc of it. Nobody is forcing you to make tcs of rank 1-14 monsters, but having teachers offer these WOULD.
I don't think that is correct at all.
If you look at how spells are learned in the game from different sources, there is no evidence that points to a spell of higher rank absolutely requiring a previous rank spell be learned.

You get the 2 versions of the Fairy spell from Lady Oriel with no prerequisite and they are both rank 2 spells.
Many other spells you gain through quests or alternative teachers have only level requirements.
Each school's first spell is rank 1 and has no learned spell requirement.
The shield spells that each school teaches is rank 0 and each has specific learned spell requirements.
None of the spells Mortis teaches have a learned spell requirement and they are of ranks 0 and 2.
None of the spells Niles teaches have a spell requirement either.

The same goes for Mildred Farseer on Colossus Blvd., she teaches a rank 4 spell with nor learned spell requirement.

Plus, from a programming point of view, it would have been best practice for KI programmers to have made it so rank and learned spell requirements are fully independent, so that teachers/vendors can be flexible in how they are set up.

The more I look into the way the game behaves, the more I'm convinced that setting up teachers or vendors for these alternate spells would be relatively trivial. Don't give the spells a learned spell requirement at all, and just a level requirement like all the other auxiliary spells in the game already have.

Survivor
Feb 07, 2014
27
On the idea of having the Wysteria Professors teach at least some of the alternative spells.
It is shown that the Wysteria Academy has a much more free-form way of teaching in general.
Thematically it fits really well for them to teach these alternative spells with no learned spell prerequisite and only a level requirement.
It falls in line with all the existing "extracurricular" teachers that are already in the game, too.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
LordVanya on Sep 10, 2018 wrote:
I don't think that is correct at all.
If you look at how spells are learned in the game from different sources, there is no evidence that points to a spell of higher rank absolutely requiring a previous rank spell be learned.

You get the 2 versions of the Fairy spell from Lady Oriel with no prerequisite and they are both rank 2 spells.
Many other spells you gain through quests or alternative teachers have only level requirements.
Each school's first spell is rank 1 and has no learned spell requirement.
The shield spells that each school teaches is rank 0 and each has specific learned spell requirements.
None of the spells Mortis teaches have a learned spell requirement and they are of ranks 0 and 2.
None of the spells Niles teaches have a spell requirement either.

The same goes for Mildred Farseer on Colossus Blvd., she teaches a rank 4 spell with nor learned spell requirement.

Plus, from a programming point of view, it would have been best practice for KI programmers to have made it so rank and learned spell requirements are fully independent, so that teachers/vendors can be flexible in how they are set up.

The more I look into the way the game behaves, the more I'm convinced that setting up teachers or vendors for these alternate spells would be relatively trivial. Don't give the spells a learned spell requirement at all, and just a level requirement like all the other auxiliary spells in the game already have.
no evidence? Try going to the primary teachers for each school. You have to learn the first spell to learn the second. You can't learn Sun Bird without first learning Fire Cat, Fire Elf, and Glacial Shield. Look at Colossal. You need to not only complete a quest to get it, but you have to have the previous fist spells to get colossal. There's MORE examples of spell requirements than not. In order to get your level 58 spell, you need the level 48 spell. There's proof all through the game they require you to get lower spells before getting higher spells. One thing KI can be counted on is to continue things the way they have been doing it. New spells that fix school's failings isnt available when it's needed, it's available during the newest world's release and with a huge level requirement.

I'm not saying it CANT be done, I'm saying history suggest it WONT be done that way. Sure, the Wysteria teachers COULD break away from the mold, but history shows us KI won't do it that way; it's TOO easy. I'm trying to work within the existing system. Also, why shouldnt getting all these extra spells require some kind of work on our part? They should NOT be freebies in my eyes. I dont have a problem farming for the spells I want as long as there's a way to realistically get them.

Survivor
Feb 07, 2014
27
dayerider on Sep 10, 2018 wrote:
no evidence? Try going to the primary teachers for each school. You have to learn the first spell to learn the second. You can't learn Sun Bird without first learning Fire Cat, Fire Elf, and Glacial Shield. Look at Colossal. You need to not only complete a quest to get it, but you have to have the previous fist spells to get colossal. There's MORE examples of spell requirements than not. In order to get your level 58 spell, you need the level 48 spell. There's proof all through the game they require you to get lower spells before getting higher spells. One thing KI can be counted on is to continue things the way they have been doing it. New spells that fix school's failings isnt available when it's needed, it's available during the newest world's release and with a huge level requirement.

I'm not saying it CANT be done, I'm saying history suggest it WONT be done that way. Sure, the Wysteria teachers COULD break away from the mold, but history shows us KI won't do it that way; it's TOO easy. I'm trying to work within the existing system. Also, why shouldnt getting all these extra spells require some kind of work on our part? They should NOT be freebies in my eyes. I dont have a problem farming for the spells I want as long as there's a way to realistically get them.
History clearly shows that every other source of spell learning does not require spell prerequisites. Being that every other teacher in the game is set up like this, the main school teachers are the exception, not the rule. Your main set of spells involve quests as you go into higher levels, yes. But what you are suggesting is completely new system that would require a ton of work to add into the game. If you are adding new mechanics into the game, then you are not working within the system. You are changing it. Your suggestion is a very big change.

I never suggested they should all be freebies.
What I am suggesting is that it be done exactly the same way as it is right now.

There is no reason to make players grind for low level spells that you already learned the base form of.
If I'm a Fire Wizard when I go to learn fire shield I get it for free as long as I meet the level requirement.
If I want to learn Fire Bats (75%, 215-255 damage version), which is basically a weaker version of Sun Bird, why should I have to go through hoops to get it as long as I'm leveled up enough?
So the reason why these extra spells shouldn't require a ton of extra work is that the reward wouldn't be worth what amounts to an aesthetic change.That would be the equivalent of having to grind for hours so that you can stitch a hat or dye a pair of boots or rename pet.

Now if we are talking a variant spells whose base requires a quest, then by all means add a quest for that spell.

If you want to learn an alternate spell from another school then it should cost a training point on top of the level requirement like how every other out-of-school spell in the game works.

There is already grinding for the higher level spells in the game because they are gotten by crafting or grinding from a boss. Alternate versions of those spells should have the same requirements.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
LordVanya on Sep 13, 2018 wrote:
History clearly shows that every other source of spell learning does not require spell prerequisites. Being that every other teacher in the game is set up like this, the main school teachers are the exception, not the rule. Your main set of spells involve quests as you go into higher levels, yes. But what you are suggesting is completely new system that would require a ton of work to add into the game. If you are adding new mechanics into the game, then you are not working within the system. You are changing it. Your suggestion is a very big change.

I never suggested they should all be freebies.
What I am suggesting is that it be done exactly the same way as it is right now.

There is no reason to make players grind for low level spells that you already learned the base form of.
If I'm a Fire Wizard when I go to learn fire shield I get it for free as long as I meet the level requirement.
If I want to learn Fire Bats (75%, 215-255 damage version), which is basically a weaker version of Sun Bird, why should I have to go through hoops to get it as long as I'm leveled up enough?
So the reason why these extra spells shouldn't require a ton of extra work is that the reward wouldn't be worth what amounts to an aesthetic change.That would be the equivalent of having to grind for hours so that you can stitch a hat or dye a pair of boots or rename pet.

Now if we are talking a variant spells whose base requires a quest, then by all means add a quest for that spell.

If you want to learn an alternate spell from another school then it should cost a training point on top of the level requirement like how every other out-of-school spell in the game works.

There is already grinding for the higher level spells in the game because they are gotten by crafting or grinding from a boss. Alternate versions of those spells should have the same requirements.
You're misunderstanding what I want to do. I am saying that variations of spells we already know can NOT be learned. So since we already can learn Phoenix, we can NOT learn Grand Phoenix. It doesn't matter that Fire Bats is, as you say, basically a weaker Sunbird, it is one we can learn, but it is something I feel we should have to put time into learning. By having a teacher offer it, like secondary trainers, it makes it too easy to get. Why shouldnt we have to do something in order to learn these new spells?

I am NOT suggesting a whole new system because Monstrology works this way already. The coding is already in the game. It would only require a tweaking to the Monstrology system and apply it to this new system.

As for spells from other schools, that is NOT possible with this idea. If you were a fire wizard, you could ONLY learn fire spells this way, not ice spells. I dont mind them making other school spells available, and yes, it should cost a training point, however, that is a topic outside of this suggestion.

As for grinding for dropped/pack/crafted spells, this isnt the same thing. If you look at the method I used for learning new spells, there is a baseline difficulty, and then it only gets easier when you're higher leveled in the game. You wouldnt have to fight a monster 600 times (think Loremaster) in order to POSSIBLY get the spell. Please reread how this idea would work. Once you see the spell cast, the system marks off one instant of you seeing it. if it's cast 10 times in one battle, you've seen it 10 times. Sin ce you can learn it from TC and item cards, if you get a team together, and everybody casts spells that are being hunted, you could get the spell in no time.

Overall, it sounds to me like you like being able to learn new spells, but feel they should just be given to us without having to work for them. Notice the name of the suggestion is INDIRECT spell learning. If we can get them from trainers, then it is direct spell learning.

Survivor
Apr 26, 2015
20
I love this suggestion how ever I believe that this can be a little too strong? I might not quite understand your suggestion but I'd say you would have to be closer to the level of learning the spell in order to actually you know... Learn it? Cause if you're going to learn the spell permanently then I'd say there needs to be a tiny nerf. Make it double the mana for any spells that you copied.

Because after all If I was lets say... a level 72 Myth wizard and I learnt Medusa from this tactic It is a strong spell and I basically learnt it without having to do any hard work what so ever. BUT lets say... you could go to Wizard city or get an item in your house, Like the Lectern item. So when you reach level 20 you can go through a small quest for the novice crafter in Olde Town and get a Myth lectern you can place in your house. OR you can defeat General Akilles in Cyclops lane and use the History of Myth Magic. Regardless you would only be able to research Myth magic Daily. You could do the same thing with the other schools as well. This could either be something to research OR It's kind of like the Gravulum badge thing where you go on missions and stuff to recieve rewards. The missions would be like 'Use the Orthrus spell 25 times' and 'Watch the Minotaur spell 5 times' And then once you complete the mission then you have a chance of recieving a Spell (It Could be random and it could even be an enhanced version of a certian spell. Such as you could learn blood bat but instead of 1 pip it could be like 2 pips and has a power enhancement or an extra buff like a shield or blade at the end of an animation. I don't know that's my take on this suggestion. All and All I love this idea regardless of how strong it is.

Survivor
Apr 26, 2015
20
LordVanya on Sep 4, 2018 wrote:
I like the idea in general, but it seems a little over complicated.
The basic concept of being able to learn the alternative spells that already exist in the game is really appealing.
It would give us players much more flexibility to express our characters' individuality in combat.

I feel my Fire wizard should be able to learn nearly every fire spell in the game in some way.
However, I also feel that if I want my wizard to be able to cast every kind of bat spell or serpent spell I should be able to have that option, too.
I think the easiest way to do this with the smallest amount of investment in time and work would be to add these spells to existing NPCs. There are a number of ways to go about this.

One way would be to give the School Trees the ability to function as Spell Card vendors for these alternative spells. Well, at least the more basic ones like Death Bat or Fire Snake etc.

Another is to have them be taught by the Wysteria Professors. Since they teach for alternative schools, why not have them teach alternative spells? Free for the spells aligned with your school, and costing training points for those that are not.

Or just do both. Split the spells up among many more NPCs. It would make the worlds of the spiral more cohesive and feel a bit more like they are part of the same universe.

On a similar note, I'd also like to see more spells available that are not "summoning" spells, but rather more akin to the spells given by wands. That way we could have more traditional flavored wizards.
I like the Idea of allowing the Wysteria professors teach us spells. It gives us a better meaning to complete Wysteria seeing as it is (If I remember correctly) A side world. Although I feel like you'd have to fight their best student. Ya know to unlock it.

James Ravensword

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
James Ravensword on Sep 18, 2018 wrote:
I love this suggestion how ever I believe that this can be a little too strong? I might not quite understand your suggestion but I'd say you would have to be closer to the level of learning the spell in order to actually you know... Learn it? Cause if you're going to learn the spell permanently then I'd say there needs to be a tiny nerf. Make it double the mana for any spells that you copied.

Because after all If I was lets say... a level 72 Myth wizard and I learnt Medusa from this tactic It is a strong spell and I basically learnt it without having to do any hard work what so ever. BUT lets say... you could go to Wizard city or get an item in your house, Like the Lectern item. So when you reach level 20 you can go through a small quest for the novice crafter in Olde Town and get a Myth lectern you can place in your house. OR you can defeat General Akilles in Cyclops lane and use the History of Myth Magic. Regardless you would only be able to research Myth magic Daily. You could do the same thing with the other schools as well. This could either be something to research OR It's kind of like the Gravulum badge thing where you go on missions and stuff to recieve rewards. The missions would be like 'Use the Orthrus spell 25 times' and 'Watch the Minotaur spell 5 times' And then once you complete the mission then you have a chance of recieving a Spell (It Could be random and it could even be an enhanced version of a certian spell. Such as you could learn blood bat but instead of 1 pip it could be like 2 pips and has a power enhancement or an extra buff like a shield or blade at the end of an animation. I don't know that's my take on this suggestion. All and All I love this idea regardless of how strong it is.
What do you mean by "too strong"? Too many requirements? The spells themselves would be too strong? Something else I'm missing? Please let me know so I can help clarify.

Regular, primary school spells would NOT be allowed to be learned this way. You still have the normal spell progression, so nothing would change there. These are EXTRA spells, ones that currently can NOT be learned in a permanent form.

Your example of Blood Bat goes against one of the rules I used in that variations of spells we can already learn would NOT be eligible. Leveling up spells is a good idea, however, that should be in its own thread.

Survivor
Feb 07, 2014
27
dayerider on Sep 17, 2018 wrote:
You're misunderstanding what I want to do. I am saying that variations of spells we already know can NOT be learned. So since we already can learn Phoenix, we can NOT learn Grand Phoenix. It doesn't matter that Fire Bats is, as you say, basically a weaker Sunbird, it is one we can learn, but it is something I feel we should have to put time into learning. By having a teacher offer it, like secondary trainers, it makes it too easy to get. Why shouldnt we have to do something in order to learn these new spells?

I am NOT suggesting a whole new system because Monstrology works this way already. The coding is already in the game. It would only require a tweaking to the Monstrology system and apply it to this new system.

As for spells from other schools, that is NOT possible with this idea. If you were a fire wizard, you could ONLY learn fire spells this way, not ice spells. I dont mind them making other school spells available, and yes, it should cost a training point, however, that is a topic outside of this suggestion.

As for grinding for dropped/pack/crafted spells, this isnt the same thing. If you look at the method I used for learning new spells, there is a baseline difficulty, and then it only gets easier when you're higher leveled in the game. You wouldnt have to fight a monster 600 times (think Loremaster) in order to POSSIBLY get the spell. Please reread how this idea would work. Once you see the spell cast, the system marks off one instant of you seeing it. if it's cast 10 times in one battle, you've seen it 10 times. Sin ce you can learn it from TC and item cards, if you get a team together, and everybody casts spells that are being hunted, you could get the spell in no time.

Overall, it sounds to me like you like being able to learn new spells, but feel they should just be given to us without having to work for them. Notice the name of the suggestion is INDIRECT spell learning. If we can get them from trainers, then it is direct spell learning.
I'm not misunderstanding your suggestion.
I'm saying you're idea makes us do pointless grinding for little in return, and then proposing an alternative idea.

Monsterology doesn't have a spell observation mechanic. You would have to program in a new effect as a sub-system that keeps track of how many times you've witnessed every eligible spell in the game. That is potentially much more work than you are estimating. Work that I seriously doubt KI is going to want to invest.

Not allowing spells from other schools kills half the point of being able to learn alternative spells in the first place. You can already learn spells from other schools by investing training points. Learning spells from packs, bosses, and crafting is not school restricted. So adding in that limitation in your idea seems out of place and needless.

However it may sound, what I'm saying I actually want instead of your proposed system is to be able to learn most of these alternative spells (that have little to no impact on the game's mechanics or balance) for the SAME amount of work as it takes to learn existing spells.
Ideally, if a fire wizard doesn't like having to learn Fire Elf as their rank 2 spell, then I think that other rank 2 Fire spells of equivalent strength should be available to them.
Similarly, if a wizard likes bats, they should be able to learn all available bat related spells as long as they are willing to invest 5-6 training points and have reached an appropriate level.
If a spell requires you to do a quest to learn it, then there should be a similar quest to learn an alternative version.
If a spell requires you to craft it, then there should be a recipe for the alternative versions.

Same amount of work, not extra work.

Not everyone has the time to expend on grinding.
Not everyone has a group of friends to ask for help.
And very few are likely to want to invest time and effort in return for spells that are no better than the ones they already have.

Survivor
Feb 07, 2014
27
James Ravensword on Sep 19, 2018 wrote:
I like the Idea of allowing the Wysteria professors teach us spells. It gives us a better meaning to complete Wysteria seeing as it is (If I remember correctly) A side world. Although I feel like you'd have to fight their best student. Ya know to unlock it.

James Ravensword
I agree.
There should be a quest for each professor that culminates in a battle against their best student(s).
Wysteria could definitely use some more content to give players a reason to go back.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
LordVanya on Sep 20, 2018 wrote:
I'm not misunderstanding your suggestion.
I'm saying you're idea makes us do pointless grinding for little in return, and then proposing an alternative idea.

Monsterology doesn't have a spell observation mechanic. You would have to program in a new effect as a sub-system that keeps track of how many times you've witnessed every eligible spell in the game. That is potentially much more work than you are estimating. Work that I seriously doubt KI is going to want to invest.

Not allowing spells from other schools kills half the point of being able to learn alternative spells in the first place. You can already learn spells from other schools by investing training points. Learning spells from packs, bosses, and crafting is not school restricted. So adding in that limitation in your idea seems out of place and needless.

However it may sound, what I'm saying I actually want instead of your proposed system is to be able to learn most of these alternative spells (that have little to no impact on the game's mechanics or balance) for the SAME amount of work as it takes to learn existing spells.
Ideally, if a fire wizard doesn't like having to learn Fire Elf as their rank 2 spell, then I think that other rank 2 Fire spells of equivalent strength should be available to them.
Similarly, if a wizard likes bats, they should be able to learn all available bat related spells as long as they are willing to invest 5-6 training points and have reached an appropriate level.
If a spell requires you to do a quest to learn it, then there should be a similar quest to learn an alternative version.
If a spell requires you to craft it, then there should be a recipe for the alternative versions.

Same amount of work, not extra work.

Not everyone has the time to expend on grinding.
Not everyone has a group of friends to ask for help.
And very few are likely to want to invest time and effort in return for spells that are no better than the ones they already have.
No, Monstrology doesn't, but what it DOES have is the animus collection. If we selected certain spells, then got animus TYPE of item, they would simply need to change that system for mine and apply it. The groundwork has already been laid down with Monstrology. This wouldnt be much different. Im jsus applying the current system to a new idea.

The reason I used that is because it should be a bonus for a primary school, not secondary school. Adding in the limitations of pack spells etc allows for KI to maintain its income. Otherwise, they would lose a lot of money, and thus NEVER implement this idea.

If you want to suggest a way for them to add ALL of the other spells and make them available for people to get, then make the suggestion on the forum in your own thread, talking about your guidelines and see what feedback you get :) I don't have an issue with allowing for giving us a choice of spells to learn at each rank. Not every part of Wizard101 is for everybody. I don't PvP or do pet derbies, I've cut back on fishing, I dont garden anymore because I have no need for it (yet have gardens on all my wizards sitting at elder waiting for me to harvest them), and I don't decorate. These are all OPTIONAL content, as would spell farming.

Your big objection sounds like you want MORE spells than Im suggesting, be available to all wizards, and cost training points. That's fine, but that doesn't mean this type of thing can't be explored

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