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Make Death self-damage spells deal true damage

AuthorMessage
Astrologist
Sep 19, 2013
1006
Suggestion: Death spells that deal damage to the caster such as sacrifice, bad juju, and dark pact ignore pierce, resistance, and blades/traps.

It's quite frustrating to me as a Death wizard that these spells aren't very helpful if I have a blade up because they consume my blade to deal more damage to me. My damage boost and pierce also work against me to cause more damage. Ironically, other schools can use the spells even better in TC form, since they don't have the same damage boost to Death but likely similar resist.

I'd like to see these spells deal exactly their stated damage, i.e. Bad Juju would always deal 300 damage to the caster regardless of their stats or blades/traps.

Potential benefits: Death wizards have additional versatility with these spells, and don't suffer drawbacks from them in the form of extra damage. This also serves as a nerf to Jade Juju since they will have to heal off the juju damage more frequently as their obnoxiously high resist cannot protect them.

Potential drawbacks: Wizards can no longer use self hits to remove traps from themselves.

Delver
Mar 10, 2015
257
I agree completely. Death is my favourite class- and an easy fix is this. Change damage from death to moon. Sacrifice x moon health for x benefit. This fixes the problem, and it won't stack with blades. (Death). Resist would make it to op thought and not fair.

Astrologist
Mar 16, 2012
1061
I'm a Death wizard, I'm against this suggestion. In using these spells you must always take in consideration what is going on around you.
Do you have extra blades or traps on you? Then don't use those spells, it's as simple as that. If you must use those spells, then using the Death Shield ( - 80% ) would be a good idea.
Bargains with Death always have a down side, you can't have it both ways.

A+ Student
Dec 24, 2009
1895
Agreed. Changing the damage to Moon or Shadow would be a great way to resolve the issue of our own damage and pierce - which we need to survive in both PVE & PVP - causing us to do even greater damage to ourselves. It would also save our blades.

Honestly, the only time I use the self-damaging spells is when running my Death as a support player on a team. Otherwise, the cost is too high.

Alia Misthaven, 121
Fallon Raven, 81

Defender
Jul 09, 2012
151
This could come along with some things that I agree with, and disagree with.

- I agree with that death needs moon because if they are using high resist, then it basically does nothing, and they can just juju spam you without any consequence. They also can do good heals and such without moon if their resist is high, so I think it's good for something like this.

- If death's "Give and take" spells do moon damage, then that would mean that their spells wouldn't take away blade stacking, which could do a major upgrade (pvp wise). This could spark death doing blade stacking, then using bad juju constantly, so they can bladestack even more.

- These spells would still take away feints, which isn't so bad.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
I agree with the concept of making the self hits true damage as I have posted before on this article: http://www.duelist101.com/news/issues/spell-changes-improve-class-balance/

"Self Hit Spells

Self hit spells are another type of spell that are useful at low level but fall out of usage at the higher levels. This is because the offensive bent of gear/stats often makes the self-hit portion of the spell too much for the benefit it imparts. As such I propose changing the spells to allow you the option of changing the self hit to backlash damage at the time of cast. Backlash damage would deal the damage printed on the card regardless of any stats while leaving any on field spells(such as blades, feints) untouched. You could also choose to have the spell act as it normally does. This adds some versatility to these spells and allows the player to choose the usage. Once again the option to convert the self hit portion to backlash damage would only be available to players who have unlocked shadow magic."

Astrologist
Sep 19, 2013
1006
anecorbie on Nov 22, 2017 wrote:
I'm a Death wizard, I'm against this suggestion. In using these spells you must always take in consideration what is going on around you.
Do you have extra blades or traps on you? Then don't use those spells, it's as simple as that. If you must use those spells, then using the Death Shield ( - 80% ) would be a good idea.
Bargains with Death always have a down side, you can't have it both ways.
"Do you have extra blades or traps on you? Then don't use those spells, it's as simple as that."

In other words, "if you're questing solo or in one of a not-insignificant number of PvP situations, stinks to be you!"

I will admit they have some group utility, but even then I take more damage using it than someone else using a TC version. It's very irritating that my own power works against me.

Also, "just don't use it lol" isn't as simple as it might look. If I need to put up a Bad Juju NOW or die, then I'm casting that Juju whether I have a blade or not. Of course, I just wasted a blade and the turn it took to put it on, and did more damage to myself with it. If I put up Death Shield, that's another turn wasted.

In conclusion, my problem has nothing to do with taking things into consideration. It has to do with a mechanic that I think should work differently.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
i have a death wizard; he's level 112, and i can't remember the last time i used any of my self-hurting spells. but i had a death mob in mirage waste my prism with dark pact last night, so i can see how this would be useful.

of course, moon damage would take into account the wizard's resist stats. but it would still use universal buffs, like balance/dragonblades and dark pact. in pvp, it could even serve as a much needed counter for those juju spammers.

correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't insane bolt also do moon damage to the caster? in that case, it would make even more sense to have a self-hurting spell follow that.

-von

it's 4 in the morning, so i hope this post reads as intended.

Delver
May 29, 2009
264
This is just another aspect of Death School that you have to "work around" just as Balance wizards have to work around no prism, universal blades, etc.

It takes strategy to work with self-damage spells. Yes I pack death shields in my deck. Yes I will cast cast Dark Pact BEFORE I cast my death specific blades.

But you forget it also works in the reverse: Being a death wizard with a weakness cast on you. Great! I can get rid of that PLUS cast Sacrifice, Dark Pact, Bad Juju, etc without dealing the FULL damage to myself. That's what I call a two-fer. However, if I have blades up, chances are that I'm not going to self-hit so I'll do the same thing BALANCE has to: use a TC Cleanse Charm. Strategy.

Every school has their disadvantages and their pros. To truly be a "master" of your school involves finding solutions that work instead of just asking for the school dynamics to be changed entirely. Really? Next thing you know Fire wizards will want the same for Immolate. Yeah because I remember my big sis in game and fellow Merc Immolated herself to death. LOL

As for the Insane Bolt from Storm. I remember when it was Storm and not Moon. Not much of a gamble when you could shield up with layers of storm and tower trained and TC shields BEFORE casting it. That's why it's called "INSANE" Bolt cause you'd be insane to risk dying unless you were willing to just take that chance or had a life wiz on hand to heal you after. Now you can only use Tower shields and they don't block that much damage. Changing Death self-hit spells to Moon would also mean no defense other than Tower shields.

It seems to me that a lot of people who PVP and haven't found a way to beat another school want to either have that school nerfed or give their own class a boost. Just remember that not every PvE player may have trained Tower & play the class as intended.

~SM~

Delver
Mar 10, 2015
257
Death is not and never has been a school for pvp. No one uses sacrifice in pvp, same as no uses immolight, that is the problem. Changing the damage to moon or sun makes perfect sense. Sun is fire storm and balance while moon is death life and myth. Making this spells match his spells makes PERFECT SENSE.

Life has always been seen as the only real heal school, which is why life masteries are a thing. Death could fix that, by not only damage but also healing. Making the skills moon makes it fair as death is an EVIL school. It supposed to hurt you- but not kill you- since death is supposed to mimick a parasite. It hurts you but not kill you. Since moon ignores most of shields it forces the death to suffer for using it. If it remains death it beats the point of the spell. It is also annoying since it removes blades, balance cleanse TC DOES NOT REMOVE BLADES. Death does. And juju is not a big deal in pvp, it is obvious when someone will use it. Likewise cleanse charm is a pet may cast dropped in khrissilis by the chef in fort rackios. Don't be calling players silly for not knowing how to remove juju, as an excuse to give a point that has no relevance. Death and juju have complely different purposes. And juju is used in pvp by the few who still pvp. Sacrifice is a must have for questing, again no classes have a real heal other then life. Switching to moon insures the parasite outlook death class goes for.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
SorceressMiklai on Nov 23, 2017 wrote:
This is just another aspect of Death School that you have to "work around" just as Balance wizards have to work around no prism, universal blades, etc.

It takes strategy to work with self-damage spells. Yes I pack death shields in my deck. Yes I will cast cast Dark Pact BEFORE I cast my death specific blades.

But you forget it also works in the reverse: Being a death wizard with a weakness cast on you. Great! I can get rid of that PLUS cast Sacrifice, Dark Pact, Bad Juju, etc without dealing the FULL damage to myself. That's what I call a two-fer. However, if I have blades up, chances are that I'm not going to self-hit so I'll do the same thing BALANCE has to: use a TC Cleanse Charm. Strategy.

Every school has their disadvantages and their pros. To truly be a "master" of your school involves finding solutions that work instead of just asking for the school dynamics to be changed entirely. Really? Next thing you know Fire wizards will want the same for Immolate. Yeah because I remember my big sis in game and fellow Merc Immolated herself to death. LOL

As for the Insane Bolt from Storm. I remember when it was Storm and not Moon. Not much of a gamble when you could shield up with layers of storm and tower trained and TC shields BEFORE casting it. That's why it's called "INSANE" Bolt cause you'd be insane to risk dying unless you were willing to just take that chance or had a life wiz on hand to heal you after. Now you can only use Tower shields and they don't block that much damage. Changing Death self-hit spells to Moon would also mean no defense other than Tower shields.

It seems to me that a lot of people who PVP and haven't found a way to beat another school want to either have that school nerfed or give their own class a boost. Just remember that not every PvE player may have trained Tower & play the class as intended.

~SM~
- Balance can work around convert easy because they have hits like chimera, spectral, gaze and nest fury. Its true death has convert but death mobs and even people in pvp can just empower or dark pact etc.

-It doesnt take strategy to use spells that have 0 coordination with the school itself. But instead takes a huge risk. Self damage spells are literally seem as a contradiction to death which all other schools can use them without even a fracture of the risk.

- Any school can get off weakness using self- damage if not easily than death can because they blade before and after using it.

-True every school has its disadvantage but they all dont have the same amount. Fire immolate was a bad card but thats literally one which was replaced by Brimstone which now there is no need to use the card as a whole because brimstone is the upgrade.

-Insane was always moon damage when it hit live realm. Another funny fact is Insane is a moon damage spell but it still takes both storm damage and pierce which makes it even more dangerous and can only be blocked by a tower shield. Also changing death's self damage would also mean they use their own utility like any school can.

It seems that a lot of people dont understand the struggle of death and fear that they will progress. Its not about finding a way to beat another school but using their own utility at the same rate as other schools because right now it makes no senses that death's utility is better used by other schools.

Explorer
Jul 18, 2011
78
I use immolate in PVP and PVE with a -80 and a blade and trap and sometimes wildfire because of the high damage and to get off traps while takeing away 80% of the damage I would kill mostly unless they have lots of resist

Astrologist
Mar 16, 2012
1061
Robobot1747 on Nov 23, 2017 wrote:
"Do you have extra blades or traps on you? Then don't use those spells, it's as simple as that."

In other words, "if you're questing solo or in one of a not-insignificant number of PvP situations, stinks to be you!"

I will admit they have some group utility, but even then I take more damage using it than someone else using a TC version. It's very irritating that my own power works against me.

Also, "just don't use it lol" isn't as simple as it might look. If I need to put up a Bad Juju NOW or die, then I'm casting that Juju whether I have a blade or not. Of course, I just wasted a blade and the turn it took to put it on, and did more damage to myself with it. If I put up Death Shield, that's another turn wasted.

In conclusion, my problem has nothing to do with taking things into consideration. It has to do with a mechanic that I think should work differently.
I frequently solo, and have had no problems defeating enemies without depending on those self damaging spells. There are other ways for Death wizards to heal than using bad juju or sacrifice.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
SorceressMiklai on Nov 23, 2017 wrote:
This is just another aspect of Death School that you have to "work around" just as Balance wizards have to work around no prism, universal blades, etc.

It takes strategy to work with self-damage spells. Yes I pack death shields in my deck. Yes I will cast cast Dark Pact BEFORE I cast my death specific blades.

But you forget it also works in the reverse: Being a death wizard with a weakness cast on you. Great! I can get rid of that PLUS cast Sacrifice, Dark Pact, Bad Juju, etc without dealing the FULL damage to myself. That's what I call a two-fer. However, if I have blades up, chances are that I'm not going to self-hit so I'll do the same thing BALANCE has to: use a TC Cleanse Charm. Strategy.

Every school has their disadvantages and their pros. To truly be a "master" of your school involves finding solutions that work instead of just asking for the school dynamics to be changed entirely. Really? Next thing you know Fire wizards will want the same for Immolate. Yeah because I remember my big sis in game and fellow Merc Immolated herself to death. LOL

As for the Insane Bolt from Storm. I remember when it was Storm and not Moon. Not much of a gamble when you could shield up with layers of storm and tower trained and TC shields BEFORE casting it. That's why it's called "INSANE" Bolt cause you'd be insane to risk dying unless you were willing to just take that chance or had a life wiz on hand to heal you after. Now you can only use Tower shields and they don't block that much damage. Changing Death self-hit spells to Moon would also mean no defense other than Tower shields.

It seems to me that a lot of people who PVP and haven't found a way to beat another school want to either have that school nerfed or give their own class a boost. Just remember that not every PvE player may have trained Tower & play the class as intended.

~SM~
you nailed it.

It seems to me that a lot of people who PVP and haven't found a way to beat another school want to either have that school nerfed or give their own class a boost.


^this^

i don't pvp. but, as long as we're forced to share spells, the spell has to work for both or be restricted to one or the other.

i generally don't use self-hurting spells in pve. i have umpteen deathblades from pets, items, etc., so dark pact isn't needed. and, if i have to get rid of weakness, i use cleanse charm tc (whether i have blades up or not, since my main wizard is balance and that's what i'm used to doing with her).

at the lower levels, i always had death shields in, just in case i needed to use sacrifice or dark pact. but it's been a long time since i've had any use for any of those. my baby fire wizard does the same with immolate for boss fights, though it seems kind of pointless for death to bother shielding with pierce being what it is these days.

insane bolt has done moon damage for as long as i've been around. but i don't think my diviner (who's level 112) has ever used it either.

Geographer
Sep 07, 2011
823
I'm okay with the current mechanic. I use self-harm spells often. Those "useless" flat absorb square jewels have proven useful for reducing damage. I also use drains to get health back. With any school you have to embrace the strengths and work around the negatives.

Survivor
Jun 25, 2015
4
I completely disagree, the current mechanic is perfectly fine. The game is about strategy, death is all about strategy, you must think ahead and take into consideration what would be the best alternative to a situation. Removing a mechanic such as this would just make certain spells overpowered and remove a huge mind game from the death school.