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Full healing from Satyr but not from Dryad?

AuthorMessage
Survivor
Jun 13, 2011
12
Full healing from Satyr but not from Dryad?

Because that’s the way it works now.

If I am going second, have 2 power pips at the start of the round and am hit by either Mana Burn or Lord of Winter I get 2 different effects.

Sure I loose my 2 pips by getting hit with MB or LOW but if I am casting Satyr that same round I still get to cast the spell and receive full healing from it. If I am casting Dryad that same round instead I receive no healing and still loose the spell from my hand.

If Satyr can use pips that are no longer there to heal then why shouldn’t Dryad do the same, they are each trying to use the same historic pips but only one of them is able to do so.

Either way, both spells should be treated the same.

If Satyr grants healing based on the pips at the beginning of the round then Dryad should too.

Or

If Dryad can’t heal because it no longer has the pips to do so then I shouldn’t be able to cast Satyr and simple pass because I have no longer selected a valid spell.

Geographer
Mar 12, 2013
923
I don't work for KI, but I have an idea why this might be so.

Both spells check your pip count when you are in selection phase. If you don't have enough pips to cast a spell, it is greyed out. Even Dryad requires you to have at least one pip.

Only Dryad, however, checks your pip count again, when it resolves - this is because its effect is based on how many pips you have when it resolves.

Satyr doesn't check after it's cast, because it's probably not coded to do so. In the case of Dryad, the code probably explicitly contains a function that looks at and adds 200*x health on resolution.

So even if your pip count changes between selection and resolution, most spells will still resolve as normal. The only ones that are checking it twice () are X-spells. And this is why you can donate pips to someone downstream of you who has selected heckhound and their heckhound will be bigger.

To correct the problem with the Satyr, the code for every nonzero pip spell in the game would have to be modified to add a resolution check.

Delver
Oct 26, 2010
236
Dryad is 200 health per pip. If you have no pips, you get no heal. Since you were second, and you casted satyr the round when he used mana burn, Satyr is not an "X" spell, so it gives you regular healing.

Survivor
Jun 13, 2011
12
crunkatog on Jul 4, 2013 wrote:
I don't work for KI, but I have an idea why this might be so.

Both spells check your pip count when you are in selection phase. If you don't have enough pips to cast a spell, it is greyed out. Even Dryad requires you to have at least one pip.

Only Dryad, however, checks your pip count again, when it resolves - this is because its effect is based on how many pips you have when it resolves.

Satyr doesn't check after it's cast, because it's probably not coded to do so. In the case of Dryad, the code probably explicitly contains a function that looks at and adds 200*x health on resolution.

So even if your pip count changes between selection and resolution, most spells will still resolve as normal. The only ones that are checking it twice () are X-spells. And this is why you can donate pips to someone downstream of you who has selected heckhound and their heckhound will be bigger.

To correct the problem with the Satyr, the code for every nonzero pip spell in the game would have to be modified to add a resolution check.
All spells also have a secondary check at the time of casting, "is the target valid".

KI would not have to change every spell indavidualy, they could add an additonal check along with the secondary target check to the global effect code.

if you do not have enough pips at that time, you simply pass.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2737
Mana Burn, Lord of Winter and Celestial Calendar all have this effect on "X" spells. "X" spells do a pip check at the time of casting, all other spells do the pip check at the begining of the round.

Survivor
Jun 13, 2011
12
Oran of Urz on Jul 6, 2013 wrote:
Mana Burn, Lord of Winter and Celestial Calendar all have this effect on "X" spells. "X" spells do a pip check at the time of casting, all other spells do the pip check at the begining of the round.
Yes, however spells do a target check both at the time of selection and at the time of casting. if the target is no longer valid at the time of casting you pass. So why shouldn't a pip check aslo be done at the time of selection and at the time of casting like targeting?

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2737
NZ Owl on Jul 7, 2013 wrote:
Yes, however spells do a target check both at the time of selection and at the time of casting. if the target is no longer valid at the time of casting you pass. So why shouldn't a pip check aslo be done at the time of selection and at the time of casting like targeting?
Because target checks and pip checks are two different things. Not all spells need a target, nor do all spells need a pip check.

You asked why the difference and the replies have given the answer, if the objective of the thread is to debate should it be changed, there are no answers, only opinions.

Survivor
Nov 06, 2008
4
Oran of Urz on Jul 8, 2013 wrote:
Because target checks and pip checks are two different things. Not all spells need a target, nor do all spells need a pip check.

You asked why the difference and the replies have given the answer, if the objective of the thread is to debate should it be changed, there are no answers, only opinions.
The OP of this thread did specify should multiple times, and it is in Halston's Lab. it should also be noted that even spells that don't appear to need targets still do target checks, a great example of this would be AOE's, they no longer cast if all targets are defeated because they no longer have a target even though one does not need to be specified at the time of casting.

So whats your opinion? Should spells be allowed to use resources that they no longer have at the time of casting?

I personaly feel that if I can't use blades after I am Enfeebled or shields after I have been Shattered I also shouldn't be able to sometimes use pips that have been removed. This seams like a bug to me that should probably be adressed considering it has been in play for well over a year now.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2737
ML Hagan on Jul 9, 2013 wrote:
The OP of this thread did specify should multiple times, and it is in Halston's Lab. it should also be noted that even spells that don't appear to need targets still do target checks, a great example of this would be AOE's, they no longer cast if all targets are defeated because they no longer have a target even though one does not need to be specified at the time of casting.

So whats your opinion? Should spells be allowed to use resources that they no longer have at the time of casting?

I personaly feel that if I can't use blades after I am Enfeebled or shields after I have been Shattered I also shouldn't be able to sometimes use pips that have been removed. This seams like a bug to me that should probably be adressed considering it has been in play for well over a year now.
LOL. How did I know you were going to find this thread....or was this planned all along? I'm waiting for the part about Mana Burn.....

1.) Just because it is in Halston's Lab and the words should were in the post, doesn't mean it was a suggestion, especially when the lead off sentence is a question..."Full healing from Satyr but not from Dryad?" To me, this denotes confusion in understanding....not a sly jab at KI that their system is "unfair."

2.) AoEs do cast if they no longer have a target. This happens all the time with minions that are brought back to life with a heal-all spell after they were already defeated (and why players brought back in the same round, keep all their pips).

3.) My opinion is that I play the game that KI has created. I offer suggestions and move on.

4.) Just because some (half?) of the player base feels like the spell is not working correctly, does not mean KI believes the spell is working incorrectly. Usually, if KI feels something is working incorrectly, they address it (example: Wild Bolt, Guardian Spirit, etc), put it on test realm, or bring it up on the forums. Some changes may be a long time in coming (example: PvP matching).

5.) I'm just answering why it currently works the way it does, regardless of should of, what of or could of. Those debates are already in plentiful supply over on Central.

Survivor
Nov 06, 2008
4
Oran of Urz on Jul 11, 2013 wrote:
LOL. How did I know you were going to find this thread....or was this planned all along? I'm waiting for the part about Mana Burn.....

1.) Just because it is in Halston's Lab and the words should were in the post, doesn't mean it was a suggestion, especially when the lead off sentence is a question..."Full healing from Satyr but not from Dryad?" To me, this denotes confusion in understanding....not a sly jab at KI that their system is "unfair."

2.) AoEs do cast if they no longer have a target. This happens all the time with minions that are brought back to life with a heal-all spell after they were already defeated (and why players brought back in the same round, keep all their pips).

3.) My opinion is that I play the game that KI has created. I offer suggestions and move on.

4.) Just because some (half?) of the player base feels like the spell is not working correctly, does not mean KI believes the spell is working incorrectly. Usually, if KI feels something is working incorrectly, they address it (example: Wild Bolt, Guardian Spirit, etc), put it on test realm, or bring it up on the forums. Some changes may be a long time in coming (example: PvP matching).

5.) I'm just answering why it currently works the way it does, regardless of should of, what of or could of. Those debates are already in plentiful supply over on Central.
Thanks, Mana Burn was just the first example, Lord of Winter and Celestial Calendar are the most recent, if the trend continues we should not be surprised to see other such examples of this in the future.

1) Irrelevant
2) Unicorn would still have a target even if it were only the caster.
3) Cool, so no opinion either way then?
4) How long did it take to correct feint? If this is as intended it’s a bit sloppy and inconsistent, it doesn’t really fit as it’s the only circumstance of players using a resource that is no longer there at the time of casting.
5) Sure Central has quite a few threads covering just about every discussion about the game, should KI close these forums in favor of those?