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Crit, Crit Block, and You!

AuthorMessage
Survivor
Jun 30, 2013
39
Professor Falmea on Nov 3, 2015 wrote:
Hello, Wizards! I wanted to take a moment and address some concerns and answer some questions on the crit and crit block changes.

First of all, I just want to start with this – crit block is just not working on Test right now. It displays incorrectly, and it’s calculating incorrectly. This is compounding the issues right now and making things feel completely off. We’re aware of this and working on it.

As per the other changes… yes, we realize that overhauling a system that’s been around since 2010 is a big change. We don’t take this lightly. We’re focused on making battles more fun, exciting, and fast paced with Polaris and the Spiral beyond. We realized the old crit system is absolutely working against us in that regard a while ago and have been tinkering with a solution for a while. How many times do you crit… and it’s blocked? Unless you pump up your crit really high, I’m guessing this happens to you ALL THE TIME (it does to me), and it just slows down combat. That is the opposite of what we all want.

We knew we had to make a change. We’re doing this in the spirit that Wizard101 will continue to grow and thrive and there will be meaningful progression and travel through many worlds, for many, many years to come. And that’s why we rolled out the new crit and crit block system.

As for what we’re looking to improve for our next update to Test - we want to smooth out this adjustment over ALL LEVELS of crit and crit block. With the first set of changes (what's on Test now), we wanted to see if we could start the changes at level 101 – new story arc, new chapter, it seemed like a good time. However, we quickly realized the drop in power at 101 was not what we intended out of this. Duly noted. We need to make the change from level 50 on, so there will be no weird drop offs in power anymore. With the next set of changes, the journey from 100 to 101 should once again be a GOOD thing to undertake.

Another thing we’re still considering is that new system % displays much different than the old system. You will probably notice your % go down on your character sheet, but the effectiveness for most people won’t change all that much. For example, a 45% crit on the new system will land you more critical hits than 75% on the old system, but to see your crit drop that far is sticker shock, we know. To this end, we’re considering changing the display to better reflect that, but that may not happen with our next update to Test. Stay tuned. We’ll let you know.

We’ve also tested these changes in PVP internally, and think it will lead to a more balanced and improved experience overall. However, we want to hear from you about how these new changes feel in the dueling arena once they're on Test.

At the end of the school day, our goal is by the time this goes Live, once we get the kinks worked out, we think most everyone will be pleased with the new crit and crit block changes. We’ll get you some info on the next update notes, and I’ll be happy to answer general questions on the system (I teach pyromancy, not math). Hold on for the next update, and once that’s on Test, we’re ready for all the constructive comments you can throw at us!
Why not just return the current system that's in live while you fix this one? The amount of crits that gets through us in PvE is just outrageous.

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
The old system worked. There is/was no need to make major changes. Going over 100% critical is not a problem as long as block keeps pace. Lowering real performance to players is not going to be well received, and rolling creatures back too is unsatisfying. We want to go forward, not back.

A system based on independent %s could work too, however that would make crit less effective against weak mobs and farming soft targets - where is it most often used - yet still ineffective against high level bosses (who are likely to block anyway.

A big existing problem remains under either system - critical in low level PvP. When the crit system was introduced, it started at level 50, which is when players get the tutorial. Subsequently pack wands with crit were introduced, then critical pet talents. This has led to a situation in the arena where sub-50 players have significant crit free of level decay, and against opponents with no chance to block. This must be corrected.

There are two potential cures. Either switch critical off for low level players in the arena, or introduce a low level gear item with enough block to shut down a quad crit pet. The second solution works well under the old system (since high enough block will eliminate the chance of landing critical hits) but would not be reliable with the new (test) system.

Please don't mislabel stats to "make us feel better" Saying that 20% is 50% is going to cause confusion and anger, not gloss over the change. "Stealth nerfs" have been a source of frustration before. It's bad for customer confidence. We want to know our real stats, and how they affect the game.

Thanks for listening to our concerns.

Explorer
Mar 29, 2010
84
Prince of Shadows on Nov 5, 2015 wrote:
The old system worked. There is/was no need to make major changes. Going over 100% critical is not a problem as long as block keeps pace. Lowering real performance to players is not going to be well received, and rolling creatures back too is unsatisfying. We want to go forward, not back.

A system based on independent %s could work too, however that would make crit less effective against weak mobs and farming soft targets - where is it most often used - yet still ineffective against high level bosses (who are likely to block anyway.

A big existing problem remains under either system - critical in low level PvP. When the crit system was introduced, it started at level 50, which is when players get the tutorial. Subsequently pack wands with crit were introduced, then critical pet talents. This has led to a situation in the arena where sub-50 players have significant crit free of level decay, and against opponents with no chance to block. This must be corrected.

There are two potential cures. Either switch critical off for low level players in the arena, or introduce a low level gear item with enough block to shut down a quad crit pet. The second solution works well under the old system (since high enough block will eliminate the chance of landing critical hits) but would not be reliable with the new (test) system.

Please don't mislabel stats to "make us feel better" Saying that 20% is 50% is going to cause confusion and anger, not gloss over the change. "Stealth nerfs" have been a source of frustration before. It's bad for customer confidence. We want to know our real stats, and how they affect the game.

Thanks for listening to our concerns.
This. Amen to this.

Survivor
Sep 20, 2013
23
Mindy GoldenHeart on Nov 5, 2015 wrote:
Why not just return the current system that's in live while you fix this one? The amount of crits that gets through us in PvE is just outrageous.
Mindy Goldenheart this would make more sense to me as well Kingsisle has the ability to work this offline until they make it right then put it in test. besides they did have Polaris the same way before test opened I just will not play in test until this is resolved I mainly play alone and tired of getting hit with critical everytime a boss get it and Elixir of Fortification does not block as it is now.

Defender
Nov 19, 2009
160
Prince of Shadows on Nov 5, 2015 wrote:
The old system worked. There is/was no need to make major changes. Going over 100% critical is not a problem as long as block keeps pace. Lowering real performance to players is not going to be well received, and rolling creatures back too is unsatisfying. We want to go forward, not back.

A system based on independent %s could work too, however that would make crit less effective against weak mobs and farming soft targets - where is it most often used - yet still ineffective against high level bosses (who are likely to block anyway.

A big existing problem remains under either system - critical in low level PvP. When the crit system was introduced, it started at level 50, which is when players get the tutorial. Subsequently pack wands with crit were introduced, then critical pet talents. This has led to a situation in the arena where sub-50 players have significant crit free of level decay, and against opponents with no chance to block. This must be corrected.

There are two potential cures. Either switch critical off for low level players in the arena, or introduce a low level gear item with enough block to shut down a quad crit pet. The second solution works well under the old system (since high enough block will eliminate the chance of landing critical hits) but would not be reliable with the new (test) system.

Please don't mislabel stats to "make us feel better" Saying that 20% is 50% is going to cause confusion and anger, not gloss over the change. "Stealth nerfs" have been a source of frustration before. It's bad for customer confidence. We want to know our real stats, and how they affect the game.

Thanks for listening to our concerns.
Amen to this entire statement. I couldn't have said it better. Very well Put prince.

Survivor
Aug 25, 2011
14
Renix3 is right this is a big issue being (well mostly) overlooked

Explorer
Sep 26, 2012
59
Prince of Shadows on Nov 5, 2015 wrote:
The old system worked. There is/was no need to make major changes. Going over 100% critical is not a problem as long as block keeps pace. Lowering real performance to players is not going to be well received, and rolling creatures back too is unsatisfying. We want to go forward, not back.

A system based on independent %s could work too, however that would make crit less effective against weak mobs and farming soft targets - where is it most often used - yet still ineffective against high level bosses (who are likely to block anyway.

A big existing problem remains under either system - critical in low level PvP. When the crit system was introduced, it started at level 50, which is when players get the tutorial. Subsequently pack wands with crit were introduced, then critical pet talents. This has led to a situation in the arena where sub-50 players have significant crit free of level decay, and against opponents with no chance to block. This must be corrected.

There are two potential cures. Either switch critical off for low level players in the arena, or introduce a low level gear item with enough block to shut down a quad crit pet. The second solution works well under the old system (since high enough block will eliminate the chance of landing critical hits) but would not be reliable with the new (test) system.

Please don't mislabel stats to "make us feel better" Saying that 20% is 50% is going to cause confusion and anger, not gloss over the change. "Stealth nerfs" have been a source of frustration before. It's bad for customer confidence. We want to know our real stats, and how they affect the game.

Thanks for listening to our concerns.
I agree completely but I'm afraid the new system will stay whatever we say (it might be changed a little before it arrives in Live Realm but it'll be there)
first because of the work KingsIsle team did on it, can't be scrapped completely
then, because KingsIsle is seeing beyond Polaris and level 100/110
try to imagine the actual Live Realm system at level 200, I'm not sure we would be able to go forward

I think it would be better to delay the change and take time for a brainstorming with the community to complete the new Crit/Block system, to try to do a stable and final version that can still evolve whatever the level and the stats
(and also maybe, to try to find an alternative to the conversion of points into %, that system is often the reason most players don't understand how Crit/Block are working)

window.onbeforeunload = function() {}

Explorer
Mar 29, 2010
84
Corwin F on Nov 6, 2015 wrote:
I agree completely but I'm afraid the new system will stay whatever we say (it might be changed a little before it arrives in Live Realm but it'll be there)
first because of the work KingsIsle team did on it, can't be scrapped completely
then, because KingsIsle is seeing beyond Polaris and level 100/110
try to imagine the actual Live Realm system at level 200, I'm not sure we would be able to go forward

I think it would be better to delay the change and take time for a brainstorming with the community to complete the new Crit/Block system, to try to do a stable and final version that can still evolve whatever the level and the stats
(and also maybe, to try to find an alternative to the conversion of points into %, that system is often the reason most players don't understand how Crit/Block are working)

window.onbeforeunload = function() {}
The new way crit/block is going to be calculated makes sense. Yes it does give Mr. Random more influence on the outcome of crit/block, which I absolutely HATE, but I understand the reasoning. KI just needs to be absolutely sure we have several options with gear so that we can work around the system if we so choose-we should have an option to reach 100% block.

KI still isn't getting that at the upper levels, players are older. We. Do. Not. Like. Random. We like having control over our actions and as much control as possible over the outcome. Stop giving Mr. Random more power in this game, ESPECIALLY at the higher levels.

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
There are two significant drawbacks to the proposed change.

The old system was endlessly scalable. A player with a million % block had a 50/50 chance of blocking a two million critical % hit, so game balance could be maintained endlessly no mater how high stats and levels got, provided proper ratios of crit to block were maintained in gear design. There was no "end" or cap.

The new system (if it works as explained) alters this to make 100% block shut down the critical system entirely. This puts a hard ceiling on block, and greatly favours high level players over low level, since marginal changes at low level make almost no difference (at 2% block vs 3% you are still likely dead if hit with any crit) but at high levels marginal changes greatly reduce your chance of taking a crit (98% to 99% is double, 100% is immune)

Both of these weaknesses make the proposed change ill-advised, and the old system better for the long-term health of the game.

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
By the way, one real problem with the current system - critical healing in PvP - can be easily fixed in the current live system without affecting anything else. Simply apply opponent's block to the healing player. This would make heals behave exactly as attacks do in terms of block chance, maintaining balance with level and build, but have no other effect on game mechanics. That's more effective and fair than other proposed solutions, easy and quick to implement, and FAR less disruptive to other aspects of play.

Administrator
With yesterday evening's update, we made some changes. Anyone that has jumped back on Test and played since then, please let us know what you think. We're still evaluating the system, so please keep the feedback coming.

“If the Mind is like a candle, the Heart is like the sun.” Professor Falmea
Explorer
Jun 27, 2014
82
I returned to test to see how these new updates changed the situation any. I didnt find any real difference to my storm at 108 a slight increase of 3% to critical and block. I then went and compared my wizards who were still to reach 101 to see how the scaling of levels is affeced with this proposed change from the wizards I looked at here is my results.
Storm lvl 108 -41% chance to critical and 30%chance to block with fortune tellers wand or 55%chance of critical and 6%chance to block with the jack hallows wailer(only 100 in live but has 102% critical 37%block at 100 with wailers wand)
Myth lvl 67 -26%chance critical and 23% chance to block,(in live 29% critical 26%block)
Fire lvl 93 - 4% critical 14%block (test) 29% 32%block(live).
Death lvl100 -50%critical 1%block(test) 87%critical 29%block(live)
Although the sharp reduction upon reaching 101 is gone as you see the reduction in both stats as you gain level increases. This does I suppose make some sense but I still cannot see it as an improved system. My 100 death is going from a 1 in 3 chance to block to a 1 in 100 how and where is that better? Am I missing something here? Not being able to rely on critical hitting is fair enough for boss fights most block you anyways but long gone are the days of speed farming gold or jewels where you can get in and out the fight with just one round.I really want clarification on how this new system is actually better than the current for I for one am not seeing it.

Mastermind
Mar 13, 2010
328
Prince of Shadows on Nov 6, 2015 wrote:
By the way, one real problem with the current system - critical healing in PvP - can be easily fixed in the current live system without affecting anything else. Simply apply opponent's block to the healing player. This would make heals behave exactly as attacks do in terms of block chance, maintaining balance with level and build, but have no other effect on game mechanics. That's more effective and fair than other proposed solutions, easy and quick to implement, and FAR less disruptive to other aspects of play.
Except it's entirely illogical and doesn't follow the "world rules" of Wizard City. (Neither do the new stat mounts, so maybe we don't care about worldbuilding any more.)

The heal was not cast by you or at you or your teammates. You should not have any affect on it. Period.

Up to this point, it has been repeatedly said that gear must be equipped by the player for it to affect the player's spells in game. Now, we have to worry that someone else's gear is going to affect a spell not cast by or at them??? If that's allowed for healing, who's to say it will stop with healing. Who's to say my less than perfect accuracy won't now affect the other team's hit somehow? Seems ludicrous, but it's the same logic, therefore the same rules would(n't) apply.

That's why any fix has to be applied universally, not just in the instance of healing, or of Dots or of whatever specific case is currently breaking things. If you allow a mechanic to break stated rules, that's never the end of it.

We bent/broke this rule, let's bend/break the next.

Any more breaking of the explicitly stated world rules (ie... ignoring their own worldbuilding) and I'm done. I love the game, but it's impossible to be immersed in it if they establish gravity and say it works, except in this case. In this case it doesn't only because we weren't smart enough to foresee this case, which should have been obvious, and was to some of our players, and we didn't plan for it.

Gravity is gravity. If it's not, it's not gravity. Rules is rules. I'm all for fixing what's broken, but not by breaking the game further.

What about the player's own block applying to heals; ie. . . I have 50% block; I'm going to block 50% of Criticals sent at me, regardless of whether they are positive or negative? That would be a viable and logical solution, and only requires that Block be what it should always have been. A chance to block all Criticals, not just the ones I want to block.

Mastermind
Mar 13, 2010
328
MrFlin t on Nov 6, 2015 wrote:
The new way crit/block is going to be calculated makes sense. Yes it does give Mr. Random more influence on the outcome of crit/block, which I absolutely HATE, but I understand the reasoning. KI just needs to be absolutely sure we have several options with gear so that we can work around the system if we so choose-we should have an option to reach 100% block.

KI still isn't getting that at the upper levels, players are older. We. Do. Not. Like. Random. We like having control over our actions and as much control as possible over the outcome. Stop giving Mr. Random more power in this game, ESPECIALLY at the higher levels.
No, we shouldn't. We should have options to reach very high block, but not 100%. Otherwise, we are choosing to nullify a game mechanic. When Jades got 100% immune, KingsIsle had to introduce Pierce - it breaks the game if players never have to take any damage.

This fix, and not having quite 100% block, prevent them from having to introduce yet one more complicated Stat for players to have to chase. You can get really high block, but someone might still Crit on you. Maybe not often, but you'll still be killable.

The minute we get back to 100% Critical and 100% Block, we're in the same situation we're currently in - and Falmea has been pretty clear that that it wasn't ever the intention that every hit would Critical and then also be blocked. What's the point of Critical then?

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
Prince of Shadows on Nov 5, 2015 wrote:
The old system worked. There is/was no need to make major changes. Going over 100% critical is not a problem as long as block keeps pace. Lowering real performance to players is not going to be well received, and rolling creatures back too is unsatisfying. We want to go forward, not back.

A system based on independent %s could work too, however that would make crit less effective against weak mobs and farming soft targets - where is it most often used - yet still ineffective against high level bosses (who are likely to block anyway.

A big existing problem remains under either system - critical in low level PvP. When the crit system was introduced, it started at level 50, which is when players get the tutorial. Subsequently pack wands with crit were introduced, then critical pet talents. This has led to a situation in the arena where sub-50 players have significant crit free of level decay, and against opponents with no chance to block. This must be corrected.

There are two potential cures. Either switch critical off for low level players in the arena, or introduce a low level gear item with enough block to shut down a quad crit pet. The second solution works well under the old system (since high enough block will eliminate the chance of landing critical hits) but would not be reliable with the new (test) system.

Please don't mislabel stats to "make us feel better" Saying that 20% is 50% is going to cause confusion and anger, not gloss over the change. "Stealth nerfs" have been a source of frustration before. It's bad for customer confidence. We want to know our real stats, and how they affect the game.

Thanks for listening to our concerns.
i agree with this, a thousand percent~ mislabeling stats is misleading and will only make players angry; stealth nerfs are frustrating, too, because i don't understand what ki hopes to gain by deceiving us. perhaps deceiving is too strong a word, but why keep us in the dark, rather than being upfront and honest about things?

since prof. falmea says it's been updated, i may give test another try after i've done my reponsible adulting for the day, and i'd be more than happy to provide feedback.

-von

Survivor
Aug 29, 2010
1
Survivor
May 12, 2009
9
The update is still a thumbs down from me as a life wizard. Just seems like we have to sacrifice even more stats now to get back to where we were before with our critical if we choose to take that route. Please don't make us go back to the jade days of healing.

Survivor
Jun 30, 2013
39
Professor Falmea on Nov 6, 2015 wrote:
With yesterday evening's update, we made some changes. Anyone that has jumped back on Test and played since then, please let us know what you think. We're still evaluating the system, so please keep the feedback coming.
I'm thankful for your efforts for improving gameplay, but the new system gives the game more reliance on randomness, and we've had more than enough randomness with drops, pets, packs, turns and even the old crit systems. After seeing how random it is now, I think the current system is so sweet, as it eases up PvE and doesn't get 'completely' crazy due to the lesser randomness. Please return the old system for now, until we find out how to resolve critical. What I suggest is ONLY adjusting block for PvP ONLY. PvE is perfect as it is. Thanks!

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
I agree with what people are saying. The critical system in PvE worked fine, dont mess with it. If this was a PvP fix, then let it inhabit PvP only, and let the other 95% of your players not suffer for the unbalanced PvP system. if this was NOT for PvP alone, I have to ask, how was the old system broken? I had a good block, and blocked a good amount of the time, but not always. That's fair. i didnt pump 700 points into crit block, so I should have been hit some times

Defender
Nov 19, 2009
160
Mindy GoldenHeart on Nov 8, 2015 wrote:
I'm thankful for your efforts for improving gameplay, but the new system gives the game more reliance on randomness, and we've had more than enough randomness with drops, pets, packs, turns and even the old crit systems. After seeing how random it is now, I think the current system is so sweet, as it eases up PvE and doesn't get 'completely' crazy due to the lesser randomness. Please return the old system for now, until we find out how to resolve critical. What I suggest is ONLY adjusting block for PvP ONLY. PvE is perfect as it is. Thanks!
I agree PVE should remain how it is. These new changes should be applied to PVP. Still hate how my critical is now almost Pointless.64% does not make me happy. I want it back to 105% where it is in live

Explorer
Nov 17, 2013
99
My ice is not even blocking... which makes me so upset. Ice is all about block, and resist.
But enemies can pierce and land on me.

Perhaps, the new system should have a percentage base, just like how the power pips have a base of 40%.
For example, for all defensive schools, 20% block base, but no critical base, and for all offensive schools, 15% base critical. Something like that.

Explorer
Nov 17, 2013
99
I thought of something...

You know how we have a base for power pip chance, it's at 40% at the moment.

How about all the defensive schools (Such as Ice, Life) get a 20% critical block base, and 5% critical base, and all the offensive schools, such as (Storm, Fire), get a 15% critical base, and 10% critical block base. This is just an example, and each school should have its own unique critical base and critical block.

Ice is a defensive school, and I cannot block anything.

Explorer
Mar 29, 2010
84
PaigeGoldenspear on Nov 7, 2015 wrote:
No, we shouldn't. We should have options to reach very high block, but not 100%. Otherwise, we are choosing to nullify a game mechanic. When Jades got 100% immune, KingsIsle had to introduce Pierce - it breaks the game if players never have to take any damage.

This fix, and not having quite 100% block, prevent them from having to introduce yet one more complicated Stat for players to have to chase. You can get really high block, but someone might still Crit on you. Maybe not often, but you'll still be killable.

The minute we get back to 100% Critical and 100% Block, we're in the same situation we're currently in - and Falmea has been pretty clear that that it wasn't ever the intention that every hit would Critical and then also be blocked. What's the point of Critical then?
I'll agree that 100% block may not be a good idea, but my overall point that Random plays too big a part in this game stands. Should I have a way to completely counter a stat on another character (not all their stats, but one)? I'm kinda leaning towards 'yes.' Some of my stats would suffer for it, I'm thinking loss of crit for block increase, but at least I'd have that option.

Geographer
Mar 12, 2013
923
Testing today...

When I leveled from 107 to 108 and again from 108 to 109, I noticed each time, my block dropped by about 1% to 2%. Starting out from Walruskberg with a fire block % of 18% given my current gear setup, that setup gave me only 13% by the time I reached Sky Anchor.

My question is this: why on earth is the level decay factor so much stronger between 101-110 than it is between say, 51 and 60?

It seems like it SHOULD decay by the same factor throughout. Previously, it was a static 0.1% negative modifier per level gained after level 50. I have no idea what it is now, or after the summer update.

Granted, I haven't been leveling the lower level guys as much so perhaps level decay is on a curve, with the curve getting gradually steeper the higher your level. I don't see how that can last, though. Eventually a curve that gets steeper, will wind up with an infinite slope, such that leveling even once will start to have a devastating effect on crit stats. And we all know the game does not get EASIER as you level up, nope it gets HARDER.

Please look at the decay factor formula again, to make sure what is happening is intended. And for the record, if you intend to leave a 1% decay rate in block for each level after 101, you can bet most of us will be dragging our feet getting to 101. Something's not right!

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
PaigeGoldenspear on Nov 7, 2015 wrote:
Except it's entirely illogical and doesn't follow the "world rules" of Wizard City. (Neither do the new stat mounts, so maybe we don't care about worldbuilding any more.)

The heal was not cast by you or at you or your teammates. You should not have any affect on it. Period.

Up to this point, it has been repeatedly said that gear must be equipped by the player for it to affect the player's spells in game. Now, we have to worry that someone else's gear is going to affect a spell not cast by or at them??? If that's allowed for healing, who's to say it will stop with healing. Who's to say my less than perfect accuracy won't now affect the other team's hit somehow? Seems ludicrous, but it's the same logic, therefore the same rules would(n't) apply.

That's why any fix has to be applied universally, not just in the instance of healing, or of Dots or of whatever specific case is currently breaking things. If you allow a mechanic to break stated rules, that's never the end of it.

We bent/broke this rule, let's bend/break the next.

Any more breaking of the explicitly stated world rules (ie... ignoring their own worldbuilding) and I'm done. I love the game, but it's impossible to be immersed in it if they establish gravity and say it works, except in this case. In this case it doesn't only because we weren't smart enough to foresee this case, which should have been obvious, and was to some of our players, and we didn't plan for it.

Gravity is gravity. If it's not, it's not gravity. Rules is rules. I'm all for fixing what's broken, but not by breaking the game further.

What about the player's own block applying to heals; ie. . . I have 50% block; I'm going to block 50% of Criticals sent at me, regardless of whether they are positive or negative? That would be a viable and logical solution, and only requires that Block be what it should always have been. A chance to block all Criticals, not just the ones I want to block.
Rules are being changed in any case. Rigid thinking isn't going to solve the problem.

My solution scales better - weaker enemies have less chance to block heals, just as they have less chance to block attacks, so it's conducive to maintaining level balance. It could be based on the opposing team average to limit exploitation.

Your suggestion of applying player's own block could also work - if I apply a "safe" build, with high block, I am likely to block my own crit heals, while a "risky" high crit low block build will crit more heals, but make me easier to kill - trade-off.

Either would be better than what we have now.