I'd like to propose a suggestion before this becomes a heated argument as opposed to a rational discussion- how about we all start keeping in mind that this is all a matter of opinion?
You can propose any number of analogies, but in the end it seems to boil down to this question- do you think the current system is flawed or not? I think plenty of people like myself would agree that the system is flawed- while others may feel that it's a strategic handicap making the game more fun and challenging.
For others, very much like myself, the very idea of waste is...*blek* For others, it's okay to be wasteful. "Practical" even.
However, I think it's important to take both sides into consideration- maybe this is why KI never implemented it... because either way, half or more people would be unhappy and dissatisfied...
I'd like to propose a suggestion before this becomes a heated argument as opposed to a rational discussion- how about we all start keeping in mind that this is all a matter of opinion?
You can propose any number of analogies, but in the end it seems to boil down to this question- do you think the current system is flawed or not? I think plenty of people like myself would agree that the system is flawed- while others may feel that it's a strategic handicap making the game more fun and challenging.
For others, very much like myself, the very idea of waste is...*blek* For others, it's okay to be wasteful. "Practical" even.
However, I think it's important to take both sides into consideration- maybe this is why KI never implemented it... because either way, half or more people would be unhappy and dissatisfied...
Of course, I think everyone in the discussion is speaking based on their opinions. Or at the very lease their understanding of how the system works in its current form. I promise not to say any more about this subject as I'm sure anyone who's read this thread is fully aware of my feelings on it but in closing...
Allow me to propose a scenario:
You are soloing Young Morganthe. It's your turn. She has 10 points of health remaining. So do you. She has a full rack of pips. So do you. You know that if you don't take her out this round she's going to hit you with a Mammoth or spam you with some other wildly overpowered attack... whatever it might be this is it for you. Do it now or lose the fight. A wand hit will do it - but - you don't have a wand hit showing. In fact, only attack in your hand costs 8 pips and does a lot more damage than you need to finish the fight. You have all of the resources available to you to finish it once and for all and with your accuracy boosts the odds against you fizzling are astronomical. Do you cast that spell - and "waste" all of those pips?
Waste not want not.
When all is said and done, all we're really talking about here is one lousy pip. Hardly worth a revamping of the system... at least not in my opinion.
Actually, you're wrong. They tend to do same cost items. They dont do big mac or fries as the options around here. It's usually fries or drink, small sandwich vs small snadwich, large sandwich vs large sandwich. What you're saying is like, "you can have a hamburger or a big mac for free" and there is no way they are of the same value. Sandwiches are on a different coupon (unless yours does something different). Im not claiming an illusionary loss, it's a real loss. The spell costs 7 pips, 8 are used, I should get one in change. This isnt a case of "use this coupon and cast a free spell", it's a case of "the spell costs 7, I used 8, where's my change?". The system IS flawed, it uses more pips than it should.
I dont understand why this is such a hard thing for people to grasp. It's the most basic of math. You go to the store, get some apples, they cost $9. You give the worker $10. How much change do you get back?
Cost for apples/spell = 9 Cost we pay to get the apples/spell = 10 Real world = you get 1 back Wizard101 World = you get 0 back
How is that accurate? The system is working as designed, so it's not bugged, it's just not accurate, and THAT is the difference
Stop thinking of it as money. You only get 1 pip per round, power or regular. If I'm casting a 5 pip spell, I have 3 power pips it uses all 3 rounds of power. If I have 2 power/1reg it's still using 3 rounds of power. The time invested in the spell is the same, no loss. The only time you "lose" time is when you don't get power pips. Power pips are a time saving bonus. Either way, that spell cost you 3 rounds of time instead of 5. THAT is the difference. It's not flawed.
Stop thinking of it as money. You only get 1 pip per round, power or regular. If I'm casting a 5 pip spell, I have 3 power pips it uses all 3 rounds of power. If I have 2 power/1reg it's still using 3 rounds of power. The time invested in the spell is the same, no loss. The only time you "lose" time is when you don't get power pips. Power pips are a time saving bonus. Either way, that spell cost you 3 rounds of time instead of 5. THAT is the difference. It's not flawed.
ok, back to simple math, 6 - 5 = 1. it doesnt need to be more complicated than that. im sorry you feel 7 = 8, but it doesnt. I dont care about speeding up or slowing down, I care for uniformity throughout the game. if a spell costs 7 pips, and you only have 8 (4 power pips) it SHOULD give you 1 pip back (or split the pip in half), plain and simple. Just because it doesnt work that way doesnt mean the math is right; it's not. It IS flawed if 5 = 6 or 7 = 8. Just because people use that method doesnt mean it's right.
Stop thinking of it as money. You only get 1 pip per round, power or regular. If I'm casting a 5 pip spell, I have 3 power pips it uses all 3 rounds of power. If I have 2 power/1reg it's still using 3 rounds of power. The time invested in the spell is the same, no loss. The only time you "lose" time is when you don't get power pips. Power pips are a time saving bonus. Either way, that spell cost you 3 rounds of time instead of 5. THAT is the difference. It's not flawed.
I think most of us are looking at the value that the pip has- the numerical value. Please try to understand that when people see 6-5 = 0 the first thing to come to mind is, this is flawed.
You seem to be...in strong favor of the current system, and I'm as of yet not understanding your reason as I had hoped, but that's fine.
I guess if I had to sum up the only reason I have been able to deduce from the thread so far aside from the one mentioned in my OP-
"This is the way I see things, and to change it would be to defy my understanding of it."
So just...dislike of change? I don't know. It'd be nice to be able to easier understand other people :(
I think most of us are looking at the value that the pip has- the numerical value. Please try to understand that when people see 6-5 = 0 the first thing to come to mind is, this is flawed.
You seem to be...in strong favor of the current system, and I'm as of yet not understanding your reason as I had hoped, but that's fine.
I guess if I had to sum up the only reason I have been able to deduce from the thread so far aside from the one mentioned in my OP-
"This is the way I see things, and to change it would be to defy my understanding of it."
So just...dislike of change? I don't know. It'd be nice to be able to easier understand other people :(
I understand the side that you only think of it as money. There should always be change, and that's a bit obsessive. It's time though, not money. Sometimes you get a bonus, sometimes you don't. You seem to think of it as something you're entitled to. I see it as a bonus. It takes me 3 rounds to cast the 5 pip spell either way. Getting change would be a double bonus.
By giving pips back: If I have 2p/1r, cast 5 pip on 3rd round. I will have 1 pip next turn. Let's assume it's power pip. So now I could cast a 2 pip school or a 1 pip off school. If I have 3p, cast on 3rd round. I will have 1 pip left + 1 new pip. Let's assume it's a power pip. So now I could cast a 3 pip school or a 2 pip off school.
You are gaining an extra round by casting odd number spells.
I understand completely the view that numbers should always be perfect and add up, but they don't always. If pips are like a capacitor holding energy with an on/off switch, then we release it's energy all at once, whether it's at 50% or 100% charge. A pip is use all or none, not all or half.
ok, back to simple math, 6 - 5 = 1. it doesnt need to be more complicated than that. im sorry you feel 7 = 8, but it doesnt. I dont care about speeding up or slowing down, I care for uniformity throughout the game. if a spell costs 7 pips, and you only have 8 (4 power pips) it SHOULD give you 1 pip back (or split the pip in half), plain and simple. Just because it doesnt work that way doesnt mean the math is right; it's not. It IS flawed if 5 = 6 or 7 = 8. Just because people use that method doesnt mean it's right.
I am glad you understand my perspective and happy to see that you share a desire for uniformity throughout the game.
Nonetheless, no matter how much we desire for the game to change accordingly- the one who decides that ultimately is KI.
I can only hope they take the suggestion into serious consideration, and maybe find a way to appease both sides.
It has been mentioned before ad nauseum. The issue is that there really isn't an issue. It's the entire concept of "power pips". When you view your pips, forget for a moment the concept of power pips and just figure what you would have if you were casting an off-school spell. Other than the fact that they're a different color, they are all ONE pip. Power pips just happen to COUNT for two pips when you're casting a spell within your school. Dividing any pip would be 1/2 a pip...period... a fraction, which is impossible, and useless. There aren't any spells that require 1/2 a pip therefore there's no need for it. You simply have to resign yourself to the fact that if you're casting a spell from your school that requires an odd number of pips, and you have all power pips, the cost to cast is going to basically be rounded up to the next even pip. Three will cost you the equivalent of four... five will cost you the equivalent of six, etc. No leftovers.
This. This is the entire answer, and changing it would totally obliterate the advantage of own school spells/mastery amulets.
A power pip is one pip. One Pip. When using a spell from your own school/mastery school, the yellow one pip spells count as two pips. But they are still really only one pip.
Rather than "feel cheated" that you're not getting a pip back, consider the value of that one pip functioning as two, in specific circumstances.
ok, back to simple math, 6 - 5 = 1. it doesnt need to be more complicated than that. im sorry you feel 7 = 8, but it doesnt. I dont care about speeding up or slowing down, I care for uniformity throughout the game. if a spell costs 7 pips, and you only have 8 (4 power pips) it SHOULD give you 1 pip back (or split the pip in half), plain and simple. Just because it doesnt work that way doesnt mean the math is right; it's not. It IS flawed if 5 = 6 or 7 = 8. Just because people use that method doesnt mean it's right.
OK, I know I promised I wasn't going to say any more but I can't help myself.
What's flawed is your math... You stated "if a spell costs 7 pips, and you only have 8 (4 power pips)" - the flaw is that you don't have 8 - you only have 4! Forget that it's a power pip. It's one pip. Period. You're able to get more out of it because of your mastery of the school. But-it-is-still-only-ONE.
I understand the side that you only think of it as money. There should always be change, and that's a bit obsessive. It's time though, not money. Sometimes you get a bonus, sometimes you don't. You seem to think of it as something you're entitled to. I see it as a bonus. It takes me 3 rounds to cast the 5 pip spell either way. Getting change would be a double bonus.
By giving pips back: If I have 2p/1r, cast 5 pip on 3rd round. I will have 1 pip next turn. Let's assume it's power pip. So now I could cast a 2 pip school or a 1 pip off school. If I have 3p, cast on 3rd round. I will have 1 pip left + 1 new pip. Let's assume it's a power pip. So now I could cast a 3 pip school or a 2 pip off school.
You are gaining an extra round by casting odd number spells.
I understand completely the view that numbers should always be perfect and add up, but they don't always. If pips are like a capacitor holding energy with an on/off switch, then we release it's energy all at once, whether it's at 50% or 100% charge. A pip is use all or none, not all or half.
Entitled implies a privilege or gift that is taken for granted or that someone unjustly feels they deserve. I personally feel this word does not suit me or my regard for anything- I am always thankful for what I have and am well aware that I could lose everything and anything at any given moment.
I understood your comparison between a power pip and the coupon
which gives you the choice between a 1$ fries or a 2$ burger (imp or leprechaun, dark fairy or ghoul, etc.)
The problem isn't that I don't understand. I simply disagree and feel it should be changed.
The current system treats power pips like the aforementioned coupon, whereas I (and many others) feel it would be far more appropriate to either receive 2 1$ fries or 1 2$ burger.
I asked in my original post for people to explain to me why they feel that the system should stay as is in the event that was their position.
It's clear why people feel it should change, though perhaps the discussion should opened up to that as well?
So far I don't feel I have received answers to this question, so much I have been told to simply accept things as they are.
Hopefully more insight will have light shown on it soon.
This. This is the entire answer, and changing it would totally obliterate the advantage of own school spells/mastery amulets.
A power pip is one pip. One Pip. When using a spell from your own school/mastery school, the yellow one pip spells count as two pips. But they are still really only one pip.
Rather than "feel cheated" that you're not getting a pip back, consider the value of that one pip functioning as two, in specific circumstances.
When using quotation marks it's normally to quote words that have been said- I don't recall anyone using the words "feel cheated" in this thread, so the "" seems unnecessary. Perhaps they have and I simply missed it or I don't recall, but either way I'm just being nitpicky, so nevermind my gab about punctuation. I'm not exactly known for being grammatically perfect, far from it.
Doesn't help that my keyboard has been acting up lately, no indeed not. Sometimes I'll press a key and it simply won't register, but I suppose I'm getting too far off topic.
Yes, yes that description was brought up prior, alongside many other analogies, I understand it completely, no need to go into detail, but we're not talking about how the system operates now.
We're talking about change. About whether or not the current set up is or isn't the best possible set up, and why it is or isn't?
If you wouldn't mind explaining, since this is your first time responding, why you feel the current system should stay as is or why it should change?
Edit: This change would not obliterate the advantage of own school spells/mastery amulets. It would enhance it.
OK, I know I promised I wasn't going to say any more but I can't help myself.
What's flawed is your math... You stated "if a spell costs 7 pips, and you only have 8 (4 power pips)" - the flaw is that you don't have 8 - you only have 4! Forget that it's a power pip. It's one pip. Period. You're able to get more out of it because of your mastery of the school. But-it-is-still-only-ONE.
Right, now I'm done for sure! (I promise again)
since the 1 pip counts for 2, it's 2 pips for mastery schools and 1 pip for non mastery. it's still causing the problem because at some points, it's worth 2 and in odd numbered spells, in a school that I have mastery with, I only need half of it to continue my spell. Any way it gets explained, that single pip is still worth 2 white pips, and since we only need half to cast our spell, people feel we should be getting our money's worth for that mastery, and we're not. The other half of the pip is being wasted. It is the inherent flaw in a pip system being used for us to pay for the spells we cast
Entitled implies a privilege or gift that is taken for granted or that someone unjustly feels they deserve. I personally feel this word does not suit me or my regard for anything- I am always thankful for what I have and am well aware that I could lose everything and anything at any given moment.
I understood your comparison between a power pip and the coupon
which gives you the choice between a 1$ fries or a 2$ burger (imp or leprechaun, dark fairy or ghoul, etc.)
The problem isn't that I don't understand. I simply disagree and feel it should be changed.
The current system treats power pips like the aforementioned coupon, whereas I (and many others) feel it would be far more appropriate to either receive 2 1$ fries or 1 2$ burger.
I asked in my original post for people to explain to me why they feel that the system should stay as is in the event that was their position.
It's clear why people feel it should change, though perhaps the discussion should opened up to that as well?
So far I don't feel I have received answers to this question, so much I have been told to simply accept things as they are.
Hopefully more insight will have light shown on it soon.
I answered why it shouldn't be changed in my last post. Under any "solution" you give as changing the system, you are adding another round of advantage to anyone casting odd pip spells. Pips are given 1 per round, whether it's power or regular. Giving change means you get 2 pips next round ALWAYS. You will ALWAYS be able to cast 2 pip off school spells the next round instead of 1 pip. You think of this as fair, I disagree. It's giving you an extra round of pips which can be the difference in a duel, especially in PvP. Yes I believe the current system works as it is and that it's fair. I have explained repeatedly why it works that way and that is why it should remain the way it is.
I understand the side that you only think of it as money. There should always be change, and that's a bit obsessive. It's time though, not money. Sometimes you get a bonus, sometimes you don't. You seem to think of it as something you're entitled to. I see it as a bonus. It takes me 3 rounds to cast the 5 pip spell either way. Getting change would be a double bonus.
By giving pips back: If I have 2p/1r, cast 5 pip on 3rd round. I will have 1 pip next turn. Let's assume it's power pip. So now I could cast a 2 pip school or a 1 pip off school. If I have 3p, cast on 3rd round. I will have 1 pip left + 1 new pip. Let's assume it's a power pip. So now I could cast a 3 pip school or a 2 pip off school.
You are gaining an extra round by casting odd number spells.
I understand completely the view that numbers should always be perfect and add up, but they don't always. If pips are like a capacitor holding energy with an on/off switch, then we release it's energy all at once, whether it's at 50% or 100% charge. A pip is use all or none, not all or half.
it's not an entitlement, it's part of the game, that everybody in the game gets. it's not about deserving it more than others, it's about a system which some people feel doesnt work right. keep in mind that this game makes us pay twice for spells, both pips and mana. It's just such a weird system from the normal of RPGs. I havent played as many as most people have, but the ones I can speak from, only have ONE form of payment for a spell; and that's mana. And yes, you ARE paying for a spell, they're not free to cast any time you want. It IS like a transaction inside the game:
I pay you 10 pips in some combination of power/regular pips, and 10 mana to cast sun serpent
The RPGs i've ever played have only been about mana as the form of payment. Im not saying to get rid of pips, Im simply asking for them to be utilized in a practical manner is all
Because it makes sense the way it currently works.
Changing it makes no sense. Changing it completely obliterates the concept of own school/mastery amulets. I like things that make sense. That's why I think it should stay the way it is.
If a power pip is always two pips, why not just allow us to have fourteen white pips? On every round, you could, based on your boosts earn one or two pips. If that were the system that KI wanted, they would have created the system that way. The yellow power pips force you to use your pips more strategically, and provide an advantage to using own school spells or buying mastery amulets.
Instead they created a system that allows one pip to function as two in very specific circumstances. If you take advantage of the fact that it can function as two pips, while still being one pip, fantastic. If you do not, you are not owed change.
Nobody used the exact term feel cheated, but the descriptions of why one would think this should be changed are exactly that - a feeling that one is being cheated when s/he chooses to not take advantage of the special possibilities provided by the yellow pip and are instead entitled to change.
I feel that you are being deliberately obtuse, and I won't further respond.
I answered why it shouldn't be changed in my last post. Under any "solution" you give as changing the system, you are adding another round of advantage to anyone casting odd pip spells. Pips are given 1 per round, whether it's power or regular. Giving change means you get 2 pips next round ALWAYS. You will ALWAYS be able to cast 2 pip off school spells the next round instead of 1 pip. You think of this as fair, I disagree. It's giving you an extra round of pips which can be the difference in a duel, especially in PvP. Yes I believe the current system works as it is and that it's fair. I have explained repeatedly why it works that way and that is why it should remain the way it is.
Aww, yes, I recall you saying that. Well, then let's discuss that.
For starters, I don't believe "rounds" are the currency with which you cast spells. Pips are required to cast spells.
A "round" is a turn for you and your team and the opponent and his/her team. Each team get's the same amount of rounds (except the team who goes first who will potentially have one more) and this change will not affect that.
By changing power pips so that they leave the remaining 1 pip when you cast an odd number spell, players will not "ALWAYS be able to cast 2 pip off school spells" though they will have more opportunities to do so.
Also, this change will only make PVP unfair if it is only available via an athame or ring or amulet etc. that is only obtainable via crowns.
By that same logic though, mastery amulets, certain pets and certain gear already makes PVP unfair.
Not that I'm in favor of making it any more unfair, mind you. I'd be in favor of this change being freely available to everyone.
OK, I know I promised I wasn't going to say any more but I can't help myself.
What's flawed is your math... You stated "if a spell costs 7 pips, and you only have 8 (4 power pips)" - the flaw is that you don't have 8 - you only have 4! Forget that it's a power pip. It's one pip. Period. You're able to get more out of it because of your mastery of the school. But-it-is-still-only-ONE.
Right, now I'm done for sure! (I promise again)
4 power pips = 8 pips when used by someone with mastery over the school of the spell being used.
"1 power pip is still just one pip" is not necessarily true. 1 power pip is one power pip, and who's to say 1 power pip is really not just 2 pips combined?
I'll chock one more reason up to "It would defy my understanding and therefore I am opposed to it"
Pretty soon I'm gonna go through the thread and tally up all the reasons I've been able to gather and make a chart. So far I think this reason is going to be the most common.
since the 1 pip counts for 2, it's 2 pips for mastery schools and 1 pip for non mastery. it's still causing the problem because at some points, it's worth 2 and in odd numbered spells, in a school that I have mastery with, I only need half of it to continue my spell. Any way it gets explained, that single pip is still worth 2 white pips, and since we only need half to cast our spell, people feel we should be getting our money's worth for that mastery, and we're not. The other half of the pip is being wasted. It is the inherent flaw in a pip system being used for us to pay for the spells we cast
This is exactly my perspective. It seems other people have a different understanding of the system though.
As an experienced forum user I come across this often and anticipated it.
The goals of this thread- Suggesting an idea for a change/ what I feel would be an improvement and hearing from people why they feel the improvement would or would not be beneficial.
However, yes. Your understanding of this matches mine, or in other words, we both agree.
Because it makes sense the way it currently works.
Changing it makes no sense. Changing it completely obliterates the concept of own school/mastery amulets. I like things that make sense. That's why I think it should stay the way it is.
If a power pip is always two pips, why not just allow us to have fourteen white pips? On every round, you could, based on your boosts earn one or two pips. If that were the system that KI wanted, they would have created the system that way. The yellow power pips force you to use your pips more strategically, and provide an advantage to using own school spells or buying mastery amulets.
Instead they created a system that allows one pip to function as two in very specific circumstances. If you take advantage of the fact that it can function as two pips, while still being one pip, fantastic. If you do not, you are not owed change.
Nobody used the exact term feel cheated, but the descriptions of why one would think this should be changed are exactly that - a feeling that one is being cheated when s/he chooses to not take advantage of the special possibilities provided by the yellow pip and are instead entitled to change.
I feel that you are being deliberately obtuse, and I won't further respond.
Whether you respond to this or not, I feel the need to say my piece on this.
There are many ways of looking at things, and there are many people with varying opinions on how things should or shouldn't be. In some cases both sides have plenty of opposing but equally valid opinions.
I've been going out of my way since the original post to accommodate those who think and feel differently, while still being able to discuss why I feel this idea would be good for the game.
Many objections have been raised that I saw as not being entirely based in fact that I am taking the time to discuss. Many explanations have been given which helped me to better understand how others see the current system.
I don't appreciate you calling me obtuse (annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand) or that you've accused me of acting such a way on purpose (which would imply that I'm being deceitful)
and I don't understand why you would feel that way- but I apologize if I gave you that impression.
Now- in an attempt to understand your point of view, I'd like to ask: Why do you feel that this change would obliterate the concept of school mastery? I personally see this change as an enhancement, and I can't see it being a hindrance.
If you would, by all means, please rejoin and continue the discussion- if not, that's fine as well. I said what I needed to say and asked what I needed to ask.
Aww, yes, I recall you saying that. Well, then let's discuss that.
For starters, I don't believe "rounds" are the currency with which you cast spells. Pips are required to cast spells.
A "round" is a turn for you and your team and the opponent and his/her team. Each team get's the same amount of rounds (except the team who goes first who will potentially have one more) and this change will not affect that.
By changing power pips so that they leave the remaining 1 pip when you cast an odd number spell, players will not "ALWAYS be able to cast 2 pip off school spells" though they will have more opportunities to do so.
Also, this change will only make PVP unfair if it is only available via an athame or ring or amulet etc. that is only obtainable via crowns.
By that same logic though, mastery amulets, certain pets and certain gear already makes PVP unfair.
Not that I'm in favor of making it any more unfair, mind you. I'd be in favor of this change being freely available to everyone.
You don't consider time a currency, but the reality of it disagrees with you. You gain pips based on rounds, that IS time. The energy for your spell is built up over rounds. You don't just have pips instantly, pips require rounds. This change would greatly effect that. It WILL always create an extra pip every time you cast an odd pip school spell with power pips. The system as it is perfectly fair already.
You don't consider time a currency, but the reality of it disagrees with you. You gain pips based on rounds, that IS time. The energy for your spell is built up over rounds. You don't just have pips instantly, pips require rounds. This change would greatly effect that. It WILL always create an extra pip every time you cast an odd pip school spell with power pips. The system as it is perfectly fair already.
First of all you said "extra" pip. Let me remind you that THE PIP HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, WE JUST DON'T GET IT BACK, why? Because that's just how it works and we want to change that. That is the point we're tying to get across.
Mr. Peanut said that he does not see how this could pose a hindrance, and he's right, BECAUSE IF EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO IT, THEN HOW IS IT NOT MUTUAL. Someone also said that this would cause PVP to be more unfair than it already is, again everyone benefits from it so no unforeseen consequences.
Let me make this as clear and simple as possible. I AM A FIRE STUDENT SO I HAVE FIRE MASTERY. I have 4 power pips. I want to cast fire dragon which is 7 pips, but I also have efreet which is 8 pips. I am fighting 2 enemies, so I want to save"TIME" by casting fire dragon instead of casting efreet twice. But by not getting back my change I am actually losing time,1 FULL ROUND.
Some may argue that the benefits of casting fire dragon is that it is an aoe. Well for myth, orthrus costs 7 pips and medusa 8, but yet the still use the same amount of time even though 1 is more powerful than the other.
First of all you said "extra" pip. Let me remind you that THE PIP HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, WE JUST DON'T GET IT BACK, why? Because that's just how it works and we want to change that. That is the point we're tying to get across.
Mr. Peanut said that he does not see how this could pose a hindrance, and he's right, BECAUSE IF EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO IT, THEN HOW IS IT NOT MUTUAL. Someone also said that this would cause PVP to be more unfair than it already is, again everyone benefits from it so no unforeseen consequences.
Let me make this as clear and simple as possible. I AM A FIRE STUDENT SO I HAVE FIRE MASTERY. I have 4 power pips. I want to cast fire dragon which is 7 pips, but I also have efreet which is 8 pips. I am fighting 2 enemies, so I want to save"TIME" by casting fire dragon instead of casting efreet twice. But by not getting back my change I am actually losing time,1 FULL ROUND.
Some may argue that the benefits of casting fire dragon is that it is an aoe. Well for myth, orthrus costs 7 pips and medusa 8, but yet the still use the same amount of time even though 1 is more powerful than the other.
Using your Fire Dragon/Efreet example there are extenuating circumstances that make the decision more complicated than you indicate, and these decisions do have relevance in regards to TIME. First, the health of the 2 enemies... if they're at equal, full health, the Fire Dragon might be the right option. On the other hand, using an Efreet on one of the enemies in effect buys you a round against that one by virtue of the -90 weakness - and there's the chance that due to Efreet's bigger damage base you could take out that enemy altogether. Second, the enemies' pip counts. If they're at a low pip level the Dragon is probably the correct choice but again the same choices apply regarding the Efreet. In the example of Orthrus/Medusa there are similar extenuating circumstances. If an enemy is shielded the Orthrus is the obvious choice. And in this scenario using Orthrus, a double-hit spell, does in one round what a one-hit spell will do in two, saving you TIME. So in this case using the power pip for an odd-pip spell is gaining you a round... and you want "change" back from that? But back on topic... the pip. A pip is a container. One container. What's relevant is not the contents of the container but the container itself. The only variable is how efficiently the contents are used. In the case where someone with mastery is able to eke out that extra bit of use from that one pip, it is a bonus. A one-time deal with that one pip. Use it as you like but the point is you use it ALL, whether you take advantage of the bonus or not. I think it would be great for a KI representative to weigh in on this subject. And with something more in-depth than the standard "There are no plans to change the current system". But personally I feel it's presumptuous of us to expect them to do that. They're under no obligation to explain anything they do in-game. And while we can all argue until we're blue in the face the system is the system. Whether we agree with it is irrelevant.
First of all you said "extra" pip. Let me remind you that THE PIP HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, WE JUST DON'T GET IT BACK, why? Because that's just how it works and we want to change that. That is the point we're tying to get across.
Mr. Peanut said that he does not see how this could pose a hindrance, and he's right, BECAUSE IF EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO IT, THEN HOW IS IT NOT MUTUAL. Someone also said that this would cause PVP to be more unfair than it already is, again everyone benefits from it so no unforeseen consequences.
Let me make this as clear and simple as possible. I AM A FIRE STUDENT SO I HAVE FIRE MASTERY. I have 4 power pips. I want to cast fire dragon which is 7 pips, but I also have efreet which is 8 pips. I am fighting 2 enemies, so I want to save"TIME" by casting fire dragon instead of casting efreet twice. But by not getting back my change I am actually losing time,1 FULL ROUND.
Some may argue that the benefits of casting fire dragon is that it is an aoe. Well for myth, orthrus costs 7 pips and medusa 8, but yet the still use the same amount of time even though 1 is more powerful than the other.
It is an extra pip formed. In effect, giving change would create a second pip. Under your example you aren't losing time at all. You are not GAINING additional time is all. You don't lose a round at all, under your system of giving change, you would gain a round instead of remaining the same. By casting fire dragon using 4 power pips, you will always receive 2 pips the following round instead of 1.
As for the benefit being mutual, that's not really true. Different schools have different odd pip spells to varying degrees of usefulness. In effect, this could remove the extra pip starting advantage that players starting second get.
You don't consider time a currency, but the reality of it disagrees with you. You gain pips based on rounds, that IS time. The energy for your spell is built up over rounds. You don't just have pips instantly, pips require rounds. This change would greatly effect that. It WILL always create an extra pip every time you cast an odd pip school spell with power pips. The system as it is perfectly fair already.
I don't recall saying anything dismissing time as a currency- but yes, time is not the currency spent on spells. Pips are. No rounds are gained nor are any rounds lost.
A pip- not an extra pip- is left over every time an odd number spell is used. That's the primary change being discussed here.
Yes, it will change things greatly- and from my perspective, it will be a significant improvement.
I am beginning to suspect this has become less of a discussion and more of an argument.
Are you simply not in favor of change? (Not a jab, but an honest question)
Some people just don't like change, and since I'm looking for reasons here... this seems to be yours.
There may not be any need to change it- but there's also no reason not to improve it.
Despite various grievances, I can see this change: A: Speeding up the pace of every battle B: Making spells with odd # pip costs less off putting C: Opening up a variety of different stratagems that wouldn't have worked before.
I could probably come up with more reasons in favor, but you'll probably focus more on shooting them down than actually seeing just how awesome this change would be.
I have to ask you Seethe42- have you ever agreed or approved any ideas put forth on these forums? If so, I'd like to see them- they must have been flawless...
