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"Flee" penalty

AuthorMessage
Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
As we all know there are several areas of the game that are farmed for various items like spells, snacks, gear etc. - The Loremaster, Waterworks and Mirror Lake are prime examples. Many times the players farming these areas are much higher level than they would normally be if they were on the initial quest. I have noticed that there are some players that will enter these battles, either through Team-Up or through the sigil, and once they're there if they see that there are lower level players involved they'll bail on the team. Often the bailing is preceded by a comment like "ugh, noobs" or "this will take too long". I understand that many people don't necessarily enjoy the strategy portion of the game but when I find myself in this situation and I'm the higher level player I see it as a challenge - Can I keep these people alive and still manage to win this fight. I figure that ultimately there is no penalty for trying other than the time involved, which is usually not very long, and maybe a little good will might rub off. Pay it forward.

My suggestion is that in a case where a player flees with anything more than zero health there should be a minimum one-hour penalty imposed before that player can enter that instance again.

From the other perspective, that of the lower level player, don't get in these battles and assume that everyone else in there is going to heal you. No need to repeat "I need healing". That's fairly obvious by the fact that you're standing there like a bobble-head.

I guess my whole point is - if you make the commitment then follow through. It's a few minutes of game time and can be rewarding in more ways than just loot.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Identifying those who are fleeing opportunistically is tricky, but I agree with you that as we have shifted to higher stakes dungeons, player commitment to teams has dwindled. It was tolerable two years ago, it got bad at Tartarus, and now it has reached the point that lots of players are calling out for penalties and dungeon cooldowns. I don't know what the right solution is, but something should be done.

Geographer
Mar 12, 2013
923
Fleeing is often a strategic decision that benefits the entire team.

Reshuffle: Sometimes it is better for a player to flee and take a poor man's mulligan, than sit indefinitely in the battle with no cards left in hand.

Plague, virulent plague, dispel: There are very few battles in the Spiral where one gets so many stacked debuffs that it is impossible to remove them all.

i feel your pain for all the times people fled and left you standing holding the bag. This should still be an option without a burdensome cost.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
TucsonWizard on Dec 10, 2014 wrote:
As we all know there are several areas of the game that are farmed for various items like spells, snacks, gear etc. - The Loremaster, Waterworks and Mirror Lake are prime examples. Many times the players farming these areas are much higher level than they would normally be if they were on the initial quest. I have noticed that there are some players that will enter these battles, either through Team-Up or through the sigil, and once they're there if they see that there are lower level players involved they'll bail on the team. Often the bailing is preceded by a comment like "ugh, noobs" or "this will take too long". I understand that many people don't necessarily enjoy the strategy portion of the game but when I find myself in this situation and I'm the higher level player I see it as a challenge - Can I keep these people alive and still manage to win this fight. I figure that ultimately there is no penalty for trying other than the time involved, which is usually not very long, and maybe a little good will might rub off. Pay it forward.

My suggestion is that in a case where a player flees with anything more than zero health there should be a minimum one-hour penalty imposed before that player can enter that instance again.

From the other perspective, that of the lower level player, don't get in these battles and assume that everyone else in there is going to heal you. No need to repeat "I need healing". That's fairly obvious by the fact that you're standing there like a bobble-head.

I guess my whole point is - if you make the commitment then follow through. It's a few minutes of game time and can be rewarding in more ways than just loot.
The problem is you cannot see who is on your team until you get inside. You can't punish people for that. I personally just carry on usually. I can solo those instances anyways, so long as they don't slow me down by blowing my setup and such I'll help them through.

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
Folks who flee and never return is a pet peeve of mine.

Disconnect happens, as does real life circumstances; but fleeing to never return...

...yes, a penalty where a player can't readily enter a reset dungeon for a set period of time is appropriate.

I flee after I die, so I can click a potion and return as quick as possible; but the one thing I'll never do is abandon the team I'm on.

Delver
Mar 17, 2011
278
All i have to say to this topic worst ideal ever

1 some people have a team so when they enter and another person jumps in thinking he going get a free ride ya they say ugh stop it or call the person a noob because it annoying so why should that person who has a team be punish because someone decide to jump in at last mint?

2 some people don't like the people they get stuck with and don't wanna work with them so they just leave and avoid a fight and getting muted over it so how come they should have to wait a hour because they got a raw deal of a team

3 some times you get people who just don't know what there doing and when you try to help by explaining the rules they ignore you and do there own team messing up the battle for everyone so what you going do your going tell you friends to flee and get another person who knows what there doing on you team because of that person.

4 people flee all the time to get healed up and port back in how are they going get back in with a time band?

so sometimes it not always a bad reason to flee on you team if you really dislike them because you give up the rewards the drops and have to fined a new team.

level 100
level 37
level 12

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
Bad idea. There are lots of valid reasons to flee, as Crunkatog said above. Game mechanics shouldn't be changed to address bad behaviour by individuals.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
The idea is quite good actually, it's the execution we have to worry about. KI has changed its game mechanics to address bad behavior numerous times, and that is not the issue at hand.

The issue is how do we only penalize those who actually deserve it (who just leave on a whim whenever it suits their self-interest), as opposed to accidentally harming anyone else?

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
Lucas Rain on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
The idea is quite good actually, it's the execution we have to worry about. KI has changed its game mechanics to address bad behavior numerous times, and that is not the issue at hand.

The issue is how do we only penalize those who actually deserve it (who just leave on a whim whenever it suits their self-interest), as opposed to accidentally harming anyone else?
You can't penalize selectively, which is why it's a bad idea. Yes, KI have changed things like that before, and in most cases it's removed functionality for everyone to please a minority who were bothered by something few people were actually doing. In most cases those changes were unneeded and unwelcome by the rest of us.

Anyone who wants to flee for any reason should be allowed to.

Delver
Apr 20, 2011
221
Fleeing is fine if you die and need to replenish your health but I would never, ever leave my team in the lurch. I currently have two Wizards in the Darkmoor dungeon. They have both made it through but without any good drops. My balance wizard seems to struggle to find a good team, I have had numerous occasions where people have actually left before the duel has actually started simply because they don't want to play alongside a balance wizard but as a support to heavy hitters I pull my weight with numerous heals/blades and dispells to the boss.
I find their attitude both rude and disrespectful. Luckily I've also been allowed to play alongside some brilliant wizards. Just as a further note, I get annoyed at wizards who spend round after round blading up while everyone around them are dying and they still try for the "big hit" only to either have their blades taken away or they die before they can use them.
Oh and I have a question that is perplexing me since I keep getting different answers:
If you flee, say just to heal, do you loose your chance at good drops or is this just a myth, I'm beginning to think it's true because even when I manage to survive the graveyard without fleeing I still only get a reagent or snack or low level ring etc.
Best Wishes to all
James Dreamweaver Exhalted

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Prince of Shadows on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
You can't penalize selectively, which is why it's a bad idea. Yes, KI have changed things like that before, and in most cases it's removed functionality for everyone to please a minority who were bothered by something few people were actually doing. In most cases those changes were unneeded and unwelcome by the rest of us.

Anyone who wants to flee for any reason should be allowed to.
It's very possible to penalize selectively. You just have to study the behavior and identify the attributes that set the offenders apart. It takes work, that's the only mark in the con column I'm seeing. That work seems justified if the player base is sufficiently irritated.

If such an addition were made, anyone could still flee for any reason, but unlike now, there would be consequences for taking advantage of others. Players would be held accountable. That seems worth researching.

Defender
Oct 22, 2012
133
You are a team healer. Healing has attracted the attention of the foes. And you are out of it. You know the next round will be a cheat hit round. And you won't get a chance to heal unless you are back in the battle from a potion. You are a parent and your kid comes in hurt choice? A computer program to judge the motives of an individual would not be able to see a difference.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
dune327 on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
You are a team healer. Healing has attracted the attention of the foes. And you are out of it. You know the next round will be a cheat hit round. And you won't get a chance to heal unless you are back in the battle from a potion. You are a parent and your kid comes in hurt choice? A computer program to judge the motives of an individual would not be able to see a difference.
That's not really relevant, the point isn't whether a program can do it, the point is whether this feature is needed. Lots of people here and on W101Central seem to be saying it is. They're tired of there being no accountability, and they see abandonment as inexcusable. They might even be willing to take an imperfect solution if it means opportunists stay on a team and duke it out as teammates, like they're intended to do.

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
dune327 on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
You are a team healer. Healing has attracted the attention of the foes. And you are out of it. You know the next round will be a cheat hit round. And you won't get a chance to heal unless you are back in the battle from a potion. You are a parent and your kid comes in hurt choice? A computer program to judge the motives of an individual would not be able to see a difference.
If you look back at the OP I did mention that the penalty should only apply if someone flees with remaining health. If you're "out of it" I assume you mean you're "dead", which would mean you have no health. Fleeing in this instance is totally justifiable. The program would not recognize whether or not you intend to return, it would only recognize that you had no health so you would be exempt from any penalty.
My main point for this whole discussion was to emphasize teamwork. Some people could give a hoot about the team and I guess I understand that and I have to admit there are times when teammates ignore set-ups and waste traps and it's maddening. Believe me I'm not a saint and I'm not going to sit here and tell you I've never fled a battle out of sheer frustration. It happens and I'm not pointing fingers except maybe at that guy who just wanded my hex/curse/feint/trap set-up!

Defender
Oct 22, 2012
133
lol. I knew I should have said it differently. Thought about saying or almost out and the foes go first so you will be gone before you get a chance to do anything. But was trying to keep it short. There are some things that can happen. You forget to pack doom and gloom, don't load enough tc's, or something else between battles. Casting a wide net could get people who really don't deserve a penalty. I guess what I'm saying is it would take a lot of magic on KI coders part to pull that off. If they can.

I had a wizard ask for help in celestia. Said he was rushed and needed help. No problem. Went to the boss and started. He said my parents said I need to get off the computer to go. I wouldn't want him penalized. I got in to it knowing he might have to go.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
Lucas Rain on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
That's not really relevant, the point isn't whether a program can do it, the point is whether this feature is needed. Lots of people here and on W101Central seem to be saying it is. They're tired of there being no accountability, and they see abandonment as inexcusable. They might even be willing to take an imperfect solution if it means opportunists stay on a team and duke it out as teammates, like they're intended to do.
I don't see the 'lots' of people saying this feature is needed. I see a vocal very few. There is no benefit to players by having a penalty. It will not help you or change the situation at all. Punishing a person for fleeing will hurt that person, MAYBE. If they had to leave they had to leave anyways. It doesn't change your position of being left in the dungeon. There are also many reasons to flee a dungeon that are totally legitimate, like wanting to change out gear, pet, deck or refilling mana/potions. There is zero benefit to this idea for anyone, only punishment.

Geographer
Sep 07, 2011
823
There's no way for a program to judge intent, and no obligation for anyone to stay anyplace they don't want to be.

Do not want.

Survivor
Dec 20, 2012
4
People fleeing and never coming back is annoying but, what if a person flees to collect health and mana?

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
dune327 on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
lol. I knew I should have said it differently. Thought about saying or almost out and the foes go first so you will be gone before you get a chance to do anything. But was trying to keep it short. There are some things that can happen. You forget to pack doom and gloom, don't load enough tc's, or something else between battles. Casting a wide net could get people who really don't deserve a penalty. I guess what I'm saying is it would take a lot of magic on KI coders part to pull that off. If they can.

I had a wizard ask for help in celestia. Said he was rushed and needed help. No problem. Went to the boss and started. He said my parents said I need to get off the computer to go. I wouldn't want him penalized. I got in to it knowing he might have to go.
We've all made the mistake of forgetting to load a certain spell, shield, pet etc. and I understand that. In the example you give however, the player that has to get off for whatever reason will be gone anyway so the penalty for them would not be an issue. As far as coding "magic" I'll admit I don't know enough about that to determine whether it would be hard to do. I know the mechanics are already there that strip your health down to basically nothing if you randomly flee a battle. I can only assume it would be a relatively minor tweak to add other triggers to that dynamic.
There are many arguments from both sides of the issue. I was simply offering one possible consequence. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. There will always be people who dance to their own drummer regardless of other people's opinions and there will probably never be a time when everyone is satisfied. All in all I think KI has done an outstanding job in the development of W101. In its current state it functions very well from either a solo or a team standpoint even though, at its heart, it is really a team based game. This flexibility is really what keeps me playing.

Defender
Mar 28, 2011
154
I am against anything like this. It isn't a big problem. It doesn't justify adding restrictions or penalties.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
seethe42 on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
I don't see the 'lots' of people saying this feature is needed. I see a vocal very few. There is no benefit to players by having a penalty. It will not help you or change the situation at all. Punishing a person for fleeing will hurt that person, MAYBE. If they had to leave they had to leave anyways. It doesn't change your position of being left in the dungeon. There are also many reasons to flee a dungeon that are totally legitimate, like wanting to change out gear, pet, deck or refilling mana/potions. There is zero benefit to this idea for anyone, only punishment.
People respond to incentives. Right now, there's simply more incentive to abandon than there is to stay. Many players are disgusted by this, and that incentive structure is a bad idea. It encourages abandonment. Incentives need to be evenly spread, so people will judge that it's equally valuable or more valuable to stay, as intended.

Defender
Sep 17, 2011
144
seethe42 on Dec 11, 2014 wrote:
I don't see the 'lots' of people saying this feature is needed. I see a vocal very few. There is no benefit to players by having a penalty. It will not help you or change the situation at all. Punishing a person for fleeing will hurt that person, MAYBE. If they had to leave they had to leave anyways. It doesn't change your position of being left in the dungeon. There are also many reasons to flee a dungeon that are totally legitimate, like wanting to change out gear, pet, deck or refilling mana/potions. There is zero benefit to this idea for anyone, only punishment.
You seem not to see what people are talking about.
if they have to leave yea everything happens irl. And with that being said the punishment won't affect them.
But if they come in and just leave for no reason or because they want someone to help them farm then they will be punished with which I totally agree. You better think twice before stepping on that sigil to go into dungeon.
If you can not do that then you just better off leave. The problem with random people joining in can be easily solved. Go to a Perfect realm and last Area in it. Trust me there is no one or rarely someone. :).
But punishment for leaving should be implemented.

Nicholas Star

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
Lucas Rain on Dec 12, 2014 wrote:
People respond to incentives. Right now, there's simply more incentive to abandon than there is to stay. Many players are disgusted by this, and that incentive structure is a bad idea. It encourages abandonment. Incentives need to be evenly spread, so people will judge that it's equally valuable or more valuable to stay, as intended.
You aren't talking about incentive at all though. There is no incentive to leave right now like you claim You are talking purely about punishing people. Punishing people for what is a perfectly legitimate game action too. Nothing good can come from the idea of imposing penalties on players for doing absolutely nothing against the rules of the game.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
mykola230 on Dec 12, 2014 wrote:
You seem not to see what people are talking about.
if they have to leave yea everything happens irl. And with that being said the punishment won't affect them.
But if they come in and just leave for no reason or because they want someone to help them farm then they will be punished with which I totally agree. You better think twice before stepping on that sigil to go into dungeon.
If you can not do that then you just better off leave. The problem with random people joining in can be easily solved. Go to a Perfect realm and last Area in it. Trust me there is no one or rarely someone. :).
But punishment for leaving should be implemented.

Nicholas Star
Who gets punished then? If one person leaves and everyone else decides to leave, why shouldn't they all get punished? 3 people can do a dungeon just fine. This is a game. It's about having fun, not enforcing your personal random rules that aren't a part of the game. If KI even considered doing this they would lose loads of customers who pay for fun, not to be punished for playing the game however they choose to play it. Yes people bailing out is annoying, it's not worthy of penalizing people. If you are so terribley concerned about it, and you know SO many other people who find this to be such an issue, form parties with those people. Stop joining with random people and farm with these many like minded players who think this is really an issue.

Survivor
Jan 12, 2010
11
I agree, something needs to be done about those that are constantly fleeing during battle, specially in the Tartarus and Castle Darkmoor dungeons! Both of those dungeons are way too long...at least 2 hours to have others flee during battle because they feel they are with a bad team or other players are hitting fast enough...and that is considering they are not doing anything themselves to help...blade, heal, shield, ect. This is not only rude and inconsiderate it is extremely unfair for all!

A penalty should be imposed if and when a wizard has fled one of these two dungeon more than three times in one day or a few hours and that is if they have not died ! Suggestion, locking them out of the dungeon for a day or a couple of days and posting a message when entering asking them to make sure they have the time to do the dungeon are aware they will be placed with unfamiliar wizards and to be considerate of others before joining or insuring they do not receive any drops or something!

There isn't anything worse than having to start over a 2 to 4 dungeon multiple times before you can get just ONE run completed!