I know there has been a lot of posting on the Ice Wizards, as of late. So a while ago, I decided to quit playing PvP for a while, so I could watch PvP matches.
Plus I was getting tired of the rude comment over and over, in some of the matches, when I had my Ice in. Not so much from the other player, but from the bystanders watching the game. After a while, it just grows on you, and you get tired of it.
Anyway, I was wondering how many would buy the Life Amulet, and I think a lot of people have purchased it. In the last twenty (1v1) matches that I have watched, at least one player (in each match) had the Life Amulet. So, this is more than I expected, as at first I expected only a small percentage would purchase, but I don't think that is the case.
Second of all, when the Life Amulet (especially with a Myth Wizard) was involved, the Ice lost. So, when this in involved in the match, and the spell cast is an AOT or DOT spell, there is time to heal and survive longer.
Now before anyone jumps on me, the only matches that I have been watching are Warlord matches, and a few Commander matches.
Anyway, what surprised me is this, of the matches I saw with a Myth, Fire or Strom Warlord (with a life Amulet) against an Ice, the Ice Warlord lost almost every time. In several matches, the Ice even had the Life Amulet.
The third item, is that Matches are lasting a lot longer with the Life Amulet. Several of the matches are lasting more than just a few hours now. I watched a Storm and Ice (which use to be fairly short), but it lasted over two hours. I don't think this is what KI intended to happen, as I expect they where just trying to even things out with the Life Amulet.
There has to be a lot of Ice out there, is anyone seeing the same thing? Any and all feedback is good.....
Thanks, Joe, Joseph LionHunter. Ice and Balance Level 60. (Storm is on his way).
I know there has been a lot of posting on the Ice Wizards, as of late. So a while ago, I decided to quit playing PvP for a while, so I could watch PvP matches.
Plus I was getting tired of the rude comment over and over, in some of the matches, when I had my Ice in. Not so much from the other player, but from the bystanders watching the game. After a while, it just grows on you, and you get tired of it.
Anyway, I was wondering how many would buy the Life Amulet, and I think a lot of people have purchased it. In the last twenty (1v1) matches that I have watched, at least one player (in each match) had the Life Amulet. So, this is more than I expected, as at first I expected only a small percentage would purchase, but I don't think that is the case.
Second of all, when the Life Amulet (especially with a Myth Wizard) was involved, the Ice lost. So, when this in involved in the match, and the spell cast is an AOT or DOT spell, there is time to heal and survive longer.
Now before anyone jumps on me, the only matches that I have been watching are Warlord matches, and a few Commander matches.
Anyway, what surprised me is this, of the matches I saw with a Myth, Fire or Strom Warlord (with a life Amulet) against an Ice, the Ice Warlord lost almost every time. In several matches, the Ice even had the Life Amulet.
The third item, is that Matches are lasting a lot longer with the Life Amulet. Several of the matches are lasting more than just a few hours now. I watched a Storm and Ice (which use to be fairly short), but it lasted over two hours. I don't think this is what KI intended to happen, as I expect they where just trying to even things out with the Life Amulet.
There has to be a lot of Ice out there, is anyone seeing the same thing? Any and all feedback is good.....
Thanks, Joe, Joseph LionHunter. Ice and Balance Level 60. (Storm is on his way).
well, (i am not trying to offend everyone) i think why matches last so long, is because everyone is paraniod about ice. they make strategies that basically say, if there is an ice, spam this or do that, if you know what i mean. and actually, they did even things out with the amulets. i mean, matches were over in 10-15 minutes once right? that halfway means one was much stronger than the other. but if that same match lasts for an hour, they are much more even? you see?
well, (i am not trying to offend everyone) i think why matches last so long, is because everyone is paraniod about ice. they make strategies that basically say, if there is an ice, spam this or do that, if you know what i mean. and actually, they did even things out with the amulets. i mean, matches were over in 10-15 minutes once right? that halfway means one was much stronger than the other. but if that same match lasts for an hour, they are much more even? you see?
See what? This is what I see.
Problem #1: The addition of crafted ring and Athame made healing more efficient per pip than the ability to do damage. Here are some examples. Spritely (tc) is a healing spell costing one pip, with the Cosmic kris and stellar signet then it heals initially for 99 then 199 a round for three rounds. 696 total heal for one pip. Storm has a 63% attack boost so when you apply that to the rank 1 attack spell thunder snake (tc) you get an attack range of 204-269. It would take close to three boosted level one attack spells from the hardest hitter in the game to equal one rank one heal. Here you see healing outweighs damage by nearly 3 to 1. Factor a 40% resist and that turns into around 5 to 1 compounding the problem."8 Before I continue I want to point out the following. A) Critical is a non argument for damage equilibrium as heals can be critical as well B)infection reducing heals by 50% is also null because tower shields have exactly the same affect on reducing damage.
This is what's responsible for the long matches (especially at higher levels). Now the problem gets even worse when the life amulet gets thrown into the equation.
@travisAk - I have read and thought about your post. I hope you don't mind, but I would like to expand this discussion a bit...
travisAk wrote:
Problem #1: The addition of crafted ring and Athame made healing more efficient per pip than the ability to do damage. Here are some examples. Spritely (tc) is a healing spell costing one pip, with the Cosmic kris and stellar signet then it heals initially for 99 then 199 a round for three rounds. 696 total heal for one pip. Storm has a 63% attack boost so when you apply that to the rank 1 attack spell thunder snake (tc) you get an attack range of 204-269. It would take close to three boosted level one attack spells from the hardest hitter in the game to equal one rank one heal. Here you see healing outweighs damage by nearly 3 to 1. Factor a 40% resist and that turns into around 5 to 1 compounding the problem.
The Cosmic Kris and Stellar Signet have definitely boosted healing, but I find your example odd, primarily because you are comparing treasure cards. Who is going to use a standard treasure version of thunder snake for anything other than a shield breaker? If they were going use a TC thunder snake (which again doesn't make sense because you can use the 2 pip lightning bats for the same pip slot cost) wouldn't they use a gargantuan version? I mean, realistically, sprite still out heals that over three rounds, but it still does a lot more damage in one hit at approximately 578 to 643. Gargantuan lightning bats on the other hand would do between 806 and 872. Admittedly, the super high global resist is annoying, but here's where this point:
travisAk wrote:
A) Critical is a non argument for damage equilibrium as heals can be critical as well
begins to break down. Critical most certainly is a valid argument when you begin to compare high resistance ice because they have generally sacrificed the majority of their critical chance (already the lowest of the schools even with crafted gear) for their resistance whereas that isn't necessarily the case for other schools. Storm with a good pet can have universal resist over 12% and 21% or higher to ice and fire. That of course means great chance of critical heals as well for the storm. However, I am aware that you could have a decent critical ice chance (dropping your resist to 26%) while also having a similar pet (bringing it back up to 38% or slightly more), so lets move on to the second reason that this argument breaks down... A critical heal is capped by the maximum amount of health you have where critical damage is not. The healing amulets are generally more beneficial to other schools than to ice because it is generally harder for ice to one hit kill an enemy than the other way around.
Finally, there's this point:
travisAk wrote:
B)infection reducing heals by 50% is also null because tower shields have exactly the same affect on reducing damage.
While mathematically you're right of course, there is still quite a big difference. I can stack more blades and over power a tower, or use an out of class wand on it. With infection, I have to use a healing spell unless of course I have cleanse charm in treasure card. In the context of ice, that means at least one pip or a lucky spritely cast from a pet. That puts you farther ahead on the pip count, and after all... isn't that what its all about? Getting far enough ahead and with enough prep that you can use an unstoppable combo? The days of whittling down your opponent have long since passed us by. That's my two cents on the topic anyway. I'm interested to hear your view.
The Cosmic Kris and Stellar Signet have definitely boosted healing
Gear on the test realm when used with them will effectively heal for 118%, just throwing that out there before I begin.
gtarhannon wrote:
but I find your example odd, primarily because you are comparing treasure cards. Who is going to use a standard treasure version of thunder snake for anything other than a shield breaker?
This was not intended to be a proposed strategy for combat but rather a direct comparison between a rank one healing vs attack spell. The values are pretty much the same when you use the actual spells.
gtarhannon wrote:
If they were going use a TC thunder snake (which again doesn't make sense because you can use the 2 pip lightning bats for the same pip slot cost) wouldn't they use a gargantuan version? I mean, realistically, sprite still out heals that over three rounds, but it still does a lot more damage in one hit at approximately 578 to 643. Gargantuan lightning bats on the other hand would do between 806 and 872.
on your line of thought, why would someone use spritely when for the same power pip and the life amulet they would use fairy and heal for 744 with 86% heal boost. Now you see for a rank two spell healing exceeds the non enchanted version by over 100 points at the hardest hitting value. Now take the enchanted version you put forth with gargantuan and apply 35% resist to it and then what do you get. Heal 744 vs damage 566 (at highest). Now we used the most powerful school, what happens when you compare some of the weaker ones? You see where I'm going with this, healing is a constant and does not get affected by the gear of your opponent, your damage gets broken down by the resist of your opponent and the problem starts here. Want to also point out that universal resist will no longer be a characteristic of ice with the release of wintertusk
gtarhannon wrote:
Critical most certainly is a valid argument when you begin to compare high resistance ice because they have generally sacrificed the majority of their critical chance (already the lowest of the schools even with crafted gear) for their resistance whereas that isn't necessarily the case for other schools. Storm with a good pet can have universal resist over 12% and 21% or higher to ice and fire. That of course means great chance of critical heals as well for the storm. However, I am aware that you could have a decent critical ice chance (dropping your resist to 26%) while also having a similar pet (bringing it back up to 38% or slightly more), so lets move on to the second reason that this argument breaks down... A critical heal is capped by the maximum amount of health you have where critical damage is not. The healing amulets are generally more beneficial to other schools than to ice because it is generally harder for ice to one hit kill an enemy than the other way around.
what I was saying is that critical can be applied to both damage and healing spells so in the direct spell comparison I put forth it can be used on both ends of the argument. I agree with your point on the healing cap as the damage cap is an unfortunate death ;). The point I'm trying to get across is that at high levels matches are four times longer (watched a 1200 ice vs ice match that was going for eight hours) with endless reshuffling. Even non ice 1 vs 1 matches are taking an unorderly amount of time since the life amulet came into pvp.
gtarhannon wrote:
While mathematically you're right of course, there is still quite a big difference. I can stack more blades and over power a tower, or use an out of class wand on it.
what about school specific shields? You take a treasure life shield(-90) and a learned life shield (-85) then there are two school combo shields that will also stack to destroy any attempt at stacking blades. The amount of damage reducing spells are endless and abundant compared to the one and only heal reducing spell infection that only takes 66 heal points off of a 400 fairy with heal boosts.
Gtarhannon wrote:
with infection, I have to use a healing spell unless of course I have cleanse charm in treasure card.
infection is a joke since the addition of spritly, i have seen a pet hit three times in one round with spritely healing for 1800.
gtarhannon wrote:
In the context of ice, that means at least one pip or a lucky spritely cast from a pet. That puts you farther ahead on the pip count, and after all... isn't that what its all about? Getting far enough ahead and with enough prep that you can use an unstoppable combo? The days of whittling down your opponent have long since passed us by. That's my two cents on the topic anyway. I'm interested to hear your view.
this is what went wrong in the arena, pvp used to be like a boxing match a back and forth that required much thought and planning. Now it can only be compared to a critical gun fight, who can load up faster and kill with one shot or an endless match between two turtles where whoever gets bored and quits first losses. Something got lost along the way.
That is what you fail to realize. The higher level you get, the more complicated strategies are. You have to adapt to anything.
If you can't, make a new character and pvp at a low level where you can have your boxing match!
This is not rocket science, this is PvP!
And I will say this, with the new Legendary gear that will be coming to the live realm, that will definitely shake things up in PvP and balance everything out!
And I will say this, with the new Legendary gear that will be coming to the live realm, that will definitely shake things up in PvP and balance everything out!
Yes, I also think these new spells introduced for each school will have a balancing effect on pvp. I have yet to see all of the 68 gear but from what I have seen things are looking better in the arena. The question of long drawn out fights still remains in my mind though but I will remain positive until WT hits the arena. It looks to me like many issues in pvp have been considered and thought out in this upcoming update. Looking forward to legendary pvp again.
As far as the low level boxing match, I have two very successful noobs and agree with that entirely.
By the way my strategy was never at fault as I could defeat ice from second (after CL) it's just against a hard player it was a three hour fight. The sheer amount of ice past 900 was a clear example that something had to be done.
Yes, I agree, something had to be done! I never said differently, what I did say though, was that Ice was not overpowered, but that new gear had to be introduced to make everyone happy. All be it, I thought it would be arena gear, but Legendary gear works as well!
Ice was never really meant to be that great... if you ask me i think it was more designed to help other people quest. Like if you were a family playing the dad would be an ice so he can take all the damage and help their kids get higher levels.. I call it a parent school. And us ice are going to lose in pvp its just how it works. We cant critical at all like other schools our block isn't that great. We can resist but that doesnt help if you keep getting critcaled and we lack the ability to do good amounts of damage. I quit pvp for a while because of this. If your an ice getting by with how it is Kudos but i cant stand seeing honest ice players losing just because the game isnt completely balanced. I started to PvP today and i love seeing a storm critcal me at least 3 times in one mathc lol
Gear on the test realm when used with them will effectively heal for 118%, just throwing that out there before I begin.
I'm pretty sure that is a bug because its only on Heal over Time spells, and even at that, not on the initial heal.
travisAk wrote:
This was not intended to be a proposed strategy for combat but rather a direct comparison between a rank one healing vs attack spell. The values are pretty much the same when you use the actual spells.
I see what you're saying, and I wasn't trying to imply that unboosted that damage spells of the same rank exceeded healing. I was just trying to point out that damage spells can be boosted well above healing which has an implied cap of your max health.
travisAk wrote:
Now take the enchanted version you put forth with gargantuan and apply 35% resist to it and then what do you get. Heal 744 vs damage 566 (at highest). Now we used the most powerful school, what happens when you compare some of the weaker ones? You see where I'm going with this, healing is a constant and does not get affected by the gear of your opponent, your damage gets broken down by the resist of your opponent and the problem starts here.
I understand what you're saying here as well. From my perspective, I've just never known anything different. Planning for and executing on a combo (because of the ability to heal it off quickly) has always been what was necessary since I started playing PvP.
travisAk wrote:
Want to also point out that universal resist will no longer be a characteristic of ice with the release of wintertusk
I don't understand this one. The new level 56 crafted gear introduces resist all to every school (though not as high as the celestian ice gear) but the celestian gear remains available.
travisAk wrote:
what I was saying is that critical can be applied to both damage and healing spells so in the direct spell comparison I put forth it can be used on both ends of the argument. I agree with your point on the healing cap as the damage cap is an unfortunate death ;). The point I'm trying to get across is that at high levels matches are four times longer (watched a 1200 ice vs ice match that was going for eight hours) with endless reshuffling. Even non ice 1 vs 1 matches are taking an unorderly amount of time since the life amulet came into pvp.
I understand what you're saying. Again, I've just never known anything different. Its good to have a different perspective.
travisAk wrote:
what about school specific shields? You take a treasure life shield(-90) and a learned life shield (-85) then there are two school combo shields that will also stack to destroy any attempt at stacking blades. The amount of damage reducing spells are endless and abundant compared to the one and only heal reducing spell infection that only takes 66 heal points off of a 400 fairy with heal boosts.
Shields can be mitigated as part of the combo prep in a variety of ways. While your options for stopping/reducing healing are more limited, there is always entangle. However, it does appear that things are going to change soon. I saw in the new gear a -75% doom and gloom for 2 pips. Additionally, gargantuan life stealing spells will certainly shake things up as well.
travisAk wrote:
infection is a joke since the addition of spritly, i have seen a pet hit three times in one round with spritely healing for 1800.
Here my inexperience is showing. I have rarely seen that in the ring. However, it does appear that KI is addressing that as well since they have stated that "may cast" talents will be reduced in frequency.
travisAk wrote:
this is what went wrong in the arena, pvp used to be like a boxing match a back and forth that required much thought and planning. Now it can only be compared to a critical gun fight, who can load up faster and kill with one shot or an endless match between two turtles where whoever gets bored and quits first losses. Something got lost along the way.
This does help me to understand your context. I can clearly see how different it is now vs. how it used to be. While there is still strategy involved, its a totally different kind now and I can see how you might not find it as entertaining. It would be nice if KI set up arena "classes" where there are rules for each class. For instance, a school only class where you can only use spells from your school, a class where you could only have X amount of a particular attribute, (such as resistance, healing boost, etc.) and perhaps an "unlimited" class where anything goes. Its a thought... and perhaps something that KI should consider since I'm sure that the next time they raise the level cap, there will be a lot of new issues again.
